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Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

news.patreon.com

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Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#341

Post by kjkjadksj »

giancarlostoro wrote: post #296
bkraz wrote: post #80

As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support, the news is terrible: Patreon informed me that all creators must switch to a monthly subscription schedule instead of the per-creation schedule that I and many other currently use. The whole point of per-creation is that it allows me to take time off, and only charge people when I release something, thus incentivizing me, and being fair to my suppo…

The only way to put an end to this is if more people stop installing apps that are just website skins, and just use the open web instead.

Apps are now forcing you to use their website skin even though its damn easy to offer a mobile web alternative that doesn't squander ever precious local storage.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#342

Post by daniel_reetz »

AlexandrB wrote: post #249
bkraz wrote: post #80

As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support, the news is terrible: Patreon informed me that all creators must switch to a monthly subscription schedule instead of the per-creation schedule that I and many other currently use. The whole point of per-creation is that it allows me to take time off, and only charge people when I release something, thus incentivizing me, and being fair to my suppo…

Apple has quietly been one of the biggest culprits in the proliferation of subscription software. They still don't support upgrades/upgrade pricing. Subscriptions are also the easiest way to implement a software demo or trial in the App Store. Finally they use their control of the App Store to coerce anyone doing something different than monthly/yearly subscriptions into that model (as we see here). It sucks big time…

Don't forget censorship/banning of nude images. The tumblr fiasco (among others) was their doing.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#343

Post by gcr »

rdsnsca wrote: post #316
saratogacx wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model is the "old school" model for software sales. The first version you sell to a user at full price and offer a discount for upgrading (something like 40% off). It lets the customer pick when they feel the value prop is worth the cost and lets you offer a loyalty incentive to the user. Right now the choice is "keep paying for it to keep working" or "fully price for every upgrade".

Bundles can be used for upgrade pricing, you put the new version up for full price (ie. $20) and and a bundle with the new and old version (ie $30, for a 50% discount on it) for those who own the old version. When you buy a bundle you don't pay for the one you own.

Are there any examples of apps that do that? As a consumer, I haven't ever heard of an app that offers this (e.g. goodnotes, LiquidText, MarginNote, Audulus and Things have new major releases and don't seem to do this)

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#344

Post by refulgentis »

rdsnsca wrote: post #316
saratogacx wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model is the "old school" model for software sales. The first version you sell to a user at full price and offer a discount for upgrading (something like 40% off). It lets the customer pick when they feel the value prop is worth the cost and lets you offer a loyalty incentive to the user. Right now the choice is "keep paying for it to keep working" or "fully price for every upgrade".

Bundles can be used for upgrade pricing, you put the new version up for full price (ie. $20) and and a bundle with the new and old version (ie $30, for a 50% discount on it) for those who own the old version. When you buy a bundle you don't pay for the one you own.

By jumping through hoops, tying unrelated tools together, confusing users, and reaping an extra $10 you didn't want to take + support costs thereof, yes, it is possible. It is not what we expected or asked for when we started asking for this in 2007 (we = iOS devs).

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#345

Post by bloppe »

bluGill wrote: post #225
Jeff_Brown wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can they gain after losing 30% to Apple?

Patreon doesn't lose anything to Apple - they give creators on Patreon a choice - charge Apple users more to cover the 30%, or eat the loss. I don't know what Patreon's take is, they are going to take the same either way. However they know their customers and users will lose from this and it is good for them to look out for their customers (it doesn't costs them much)

Patreon's take will not be the same. Apple's fee is charged first. So for all the creators that don't raise prices, Patreon is also getting 30% less, because they charge flat fees. And every creator that does raise prices will probably end up with fewer patrons, or patrons donating less, and will probably have a similar effect.

It also just kinda harshes everyone's vibe when they eventually realize they're being gypped and paying a lot more than others for the same thing, and that can cause people to just unsubscribe.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#346

Post by derefr »

jayd16 wrote: post #315
derefr wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, alright. There's nothing actually stopping you from doing this — it requires two things: 1. either a third-party licensing server (and thus some SSO auth system — but just require Apple's own SSO for it and it'll still be a clean-ish workflow) to share/sync the transaction status from one app to the other; or a local Group Container plus logic in each app to write the transaction statuses fetched for the given ap…

Have you actually done this? Is there a common example on the app store? When did it become possible to download additional executable bundles on iOS?

Re: feature entitlements shared through a shared SSO auth backend and/or Group Container — yes, apps do this. Mostly this is in app "suites" where you can IAP a feature entitlement in one app in the suite, and the entitlement should then become available to the other apps in the suite. (I think the Omni Group apps do it? Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Re: multi-edition shared apps — I'm not sure if this has been done with the App Store in particular, but it's just a combination of things App Store apps can do (basically, moving code out into dylibs, and then marking those dylibs as On-Demand Resources.) I know that this is a common approach to supporting netplay (and especially replay of historical netplay) in competitive-eSport multiplayer game titles on Steam et al, where players need to be on the same exact version of the game engine + netcode to sync (and so those engine libs are downloaded on-demand before the match begins); and where you need an exact ABI version of the game engine to replay a netplay recording (and so that engine lib is downloaded on-demand when you go to replay the recording.)

ETA: looking more into this, I'm finding conflicting reports on whether executable-code On-Demand Resources are currently allowed on the iOS App Store: it looks like the Apple docs say no, and yet some apps (from not-bigcorp devs!) are doing it anyway and getting away with it (and have for many review cycles.) Very confusing. Maybe those devs are part of an alpha-test rollout for executable-ODR?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#347

Post by refulgentis »

gcr wrote: post #343
rdsnsca wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bundles can be used for upgrade pricing, you put the new version up for full price (ie. $20) and and a bundle with the new and old version (ie $30, for a 50% discount on it) for those who own the old version. When you buy a bundle you don't pay for the one you own.

Are there any examples of apps that do that? As a consumer, I haven't ever heard of an app that offers this (e.g. goodnotes, LiquidText, MarginNote, Audulus and Things have new major releases and don't seem to do this)

Couple of the old school macOS dev houses tried this once this hack became visible and little birdies said the hack WAI. (ex. OmniGroup)

Since then, people have backed off.

If you're going to this much work to help users workaround Apple nonsense, you really care about helping them save money, and the support + refund costs of people accidentally buying the bundle with the old version they don't need is > just building out your own server-side system, versus a combinatorial explosion of bundles in the App Store that creates a confusing minefield for users.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#348

Post by Aloisius »

MikeRichardson wrote: post #241
InsomniacL wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting idea. What if, instead of 'subscribing' for $10, you purchase a grain of sand for $10. The grain of sand is available for collection from somewhere, doesn't matter where because nobody would bother to collect it. Your physical purchase comes with free access to digital content.

This wouldn't work, unless you actually have some legitimate way to obtain the grain of sand. So Patreon would have to actually staff a location somewhere that distributes the sand.

So sell air which is only available for self-service pickup.

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#349

Post by trainyperson »

bkraz wrote: post #80

As a longtime YouTube creator who uses Patreon for financial support, the news is terrible: Patreon informed me that all creators must switch to a monthly subscription schedule instead of the per-creation schedule that I and many other currently use. The whole point of per-creation is that it allows me to take time off, and only charge people when I release something, thus incentivizing me, and being fair to my suppo…

Does Patreon let you see what percentage of your subscribers signed up through the iOS app?

Re: Apple's requirements are about to hit creators and fans on Patreon

#350

Post by nabla9 »

sschueller wrote: post #272
_han wrote: post #188

This is the most shocking part to me: > Apple has also made clear that if creators on Patreon […] disable transactions in the iOS app, we will be at risk of having the entire app removed from their App Store. Absolutely astounding that removing transactions from the platform could result in being removed.

How is the EU going to respond to this since it is literally blackmail with Apple's market dominance?

When they respond Apple changes policy for EU users, not for anyone else.

Already users based in the European Union with an iPhone have the ability to install apps using alternative app marketplaces or web distribution, in addition to the App Store.

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