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Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

theguardian.com

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Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#81

Post by maxerickson »

btilly wrote: post #59
forty wrote: post #39

What makes it unsellable or unmoragable? I don't know how that works on the UK, but here if there is a defect in a house that requires 3300€ to fix, the house value is just estimated 3300€ less than the price without the defect (or worse case scenario, you account for the value of redoing the roof if there is a risk it's needed)

The problem is that it requires a 3300€ removal just to inspect for further damage of unknown and possibly large size. If it is large and the homeowner is unable to cope, the lender is at risk. Because tbe lenders are at risk here, they won't lend unless you do the removal so that the lender can inspect.

Given housing prices, it seems that the 3500 is merely (potentially) wasteful and (definitely) irritating. It isn't gonna make it impossible to sell a place.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#82

Post by jordanb »

markphip wrote: post #73

This is shocking and confusing. In the US if you watch HGTV and Mike Holmes, who works in Canada, all they do is talk about how great spray foam is and that is the gold standard. To the point I have had major FOMO for years because I do not have it. Reading this article and the comments here ... I do not want to think, other than being glad it was too expensive to consider.

I have an interest in metal boats. I read a book written in the 1970s by a British author who went to the netherlands to get up-to-date on the best metal boatbuilding methods used by the world's experts. He enthusiastically championed sprayfoam insulation which was being used nearly universally by the dutch at the time. The boats that got sprayfoamed invariably had short useful lives and horrible corrosion problems. It is no longer considered a good insulation method in boatbuilding.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#83

Post by michaelt »

manarth wrote: post #42
eadmund wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was initially confused when I read it, but I think that ‘trader’ here must be the politically-correct word for ‘tradesman’ (someone engaged in a trade) rather than someone who trades (like a stockbroker).

You're correct, "cowboy traders" is a British idiom for tradesmen without the appropriate skills, qualifications or experience to fulfil their contract responsibility. It can also refer to those who will take on contracts (plumbing / landscaping / roofing / building work / etc) without any intention of fulfilling them, or charge exorbitant, inappropriate and unagreed prices. It's in such common British use that a TV…

A more common idiom is "cowboy builders"

But it's understandable why they haven't used that here, as an insulation installer would rarely be called a builder, just like an electrician or plumber would rarely be called a builder.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#84

Post by gambiting »

pif wrote: post #72
gambiting wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

....What definition? As a Brit, I'm telling you that's what we call people in these professions, anyone who comes to work on your house is a "trader" - you can choose to believe me or not lol. Edit: and as another commenter pointed out, it's literally the government definition of someone running their own business - "sole trader".

I do believe you. As I did not find a definition with a quick search, I wondered whether it was some regional/dialect thing.

I mean, one of the most well known sites in the UK for finding people for all kinds of jobs is literally called "TrustATrader.com":

https://www.trustatrader.com/trades

So no, I don't think that's a regional thing.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#85

Post by bluGill »

adrianN wrote: post #2

Can someone explain the mechanism how the foam can damage the building? I didn’t quite get it from the article.

After thinking about this a while (and contradicting my previous reply, though I want to leave it as it is generally correct!) I think this isn't about vapor or condensation at all. I think this is about leaky roofs! If your roof leaks, rain water gets on the wood, and the foam traps it there (even open cell is slow to wick it away) and so it rots the wood away. Worse, since there is no drops inside the homeowner has no warning that things are going wrong and so won't call a roofer to get the issue fixed. (roofers also are not perfect and so if the new roof leaks they won't know to do warranty repairs before the beams fail - in a normal house you notice the drip, and fix the problem before anything bad happens)

The above is my current belief. Who knows if I'm right.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#86

Post by sbradford26 »

jordanb wrote: post #78
sbradford26 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on what type of spray foam you use. Closed cell foam is rated to be a moisture barrier. It tends to be more expensive but is worth it to get a moisture barrier and insulation in one. In some scenarios where you need much thicker insulation to hit your desired R value they might start with closed cell for the moisture barrier and then switch to open cell since it is cheaper.

Closed cell foam will trap moisture underneath it. When sprayed on wood which is naturally moist that water will have nowhere to go. Any delaminations of the foam from the substrate will form pockets where wet will concentrate, and as the foam breaks down it becomes acidic. If I were to sprayfoam something I would only consider using open cell foam. If I were to use other impervious zero-perm insulation materials lik…

Spray foam doesn't remove the need for a designing a proper insulation and moisture barrier system for the building. If you spray foam an interior wall with closed cell foam you most likely will add something to allow the other side of the wood to breath.

Choosing where your moisture barrier line lies is typically easy in new construction but does get tricky with retrofit situations. It sounds like the biggest issue from the article is that they are taking what were vented attics and converting them to non-vented attics with spray foam. The issue isn't really the spray foam, the issue is converting an attic without proper understanding of venting and moisture barriers.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#88

Post by yobbo »

sbradford26 wrote: post #61
simfoo wrote: post #28

I'm into watching construction videos on Youtube, and since most of the content originates from the US I see lots of people using spray foam insulation without any sort of air-tight & moisture regulating membrane on the inside (behind the drywall for example). This is a disaster waiting to happen in almost all northern climates during winter (when AC/de-humidification isn't running) for the same reasons outlined in t…

It depends on what type of spray foam you use. Closed cell foam is rated to be a moisture barrier. It tends to be more expensive but is worth it to get a moisture barrier and insulation in one. In some scenarios where you need much thicker insulation to hit your desired R value they might start with closed cell for the moisture barrier and then switch to open cell since it is cheaper.

The problem is air escaping from the hot side through "cracks" or holes and causing condensation as it reaches the cold side.

In nordic standards, there must be an air-column between the insulation and the outer "cold" layer, to ventilate out any moisture that might get trapped there. There must also be a moisture barrier between the "hot" side and the layer of insulation, typically a PE-sheet, to prevent air from leaking into the insulation.

Since the wood expands/contracts with changes in temperature and humidity, filling compartments in wood constructions with foam does not guarantee air tight barriers.

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#89

Post by AidenVennis »

jmyeet wrote: post #21
CivBase wrote: post #14

Reminds me of an recent instance where some friends wanted to buy a house, but it had solar panels. The solar panels couldn't be included in the mortgage and my friends couldn't afford to buy them outright along with the downpayment on the mortgage. The house still remains unsold.

This is why you don't lease solar panels. This is common because there's little to no initial outlay but don't do it. Buy them or don't get them at all.

This is why you don't lease anything for your house. For example in The Netherlands you can lease a central heating boiler. I even have a friend that leased a couch once. It's always more expensive and you will have problems with your house when you want or need to sell it (except for the couch of course, that's just stupid...).

Re: Spray-foam insulation makes homes unable to be mortgaged

#90

Post by arethuza »

bloak wrote: post #75
arethuza wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed the status of working for yourself and running a business is known as being a "sole trader": https://www.gov.uk/become-sole-trader

Yes, but as I understand it, being a "sole trader" is different from being a "tradesperson". If you're an employed plumber, or you're a plumber with your own limited company, then you're a tradesperson but not a sole trader. If you do web sites or IT support on your own and without having set up a limited company then you're a sole trader but not a tradesperson.

What I meant is that "trader" is a pretty generic term in the UK and doesn't imply that you work in finance and isn't PC related.
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