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ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

arstechnica.com

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Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#101
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making a very popular mistake: confusing the training procedure for LLMs (autocomplete) with "how they work"/their internal ontology (mostly unknown). When we teach children how to do arithmetic, we have them predict missing items in equations. We don't accuse them of "only doing autocomplete". The same applies for LLMs.

I was implementing my own transformer-based models and fine tuning GPT-2 in 2019, and I've kept up with every development since then. I understand the internal structure of these things better than nearly all of the "AI Engineers" who are currently working on wrapping them up as black boxes embedded in applications. I'm not making a "popular mistake", I'm literally describing how inference is done.

You are conflating how it works with what the goal is.. If someone asks "how does a human run fast?" you don't say "you get a stop watch and ask them to run as fast as they can and then look at the time and figure out how to get there quicker". There is a whole explanation involving biomechanics.... And if you understand how the biomechanics work, you might be able to answer how a human can jump high too.

To make it even more concrete.... I have an LLM where I removed the last layer and fine tuned on a classification problem and the last layer now only has two outputs rather than vocab size outputs. The goal is binary classification. The output is not a completion of an idea or anything of the sort. It's still an LLM. It still works the same way all the way up until the last layer. The weights are the same all the way up to the last layer. It works because an LLM has to create a rich understanding of how a bunch of concepts work together.

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#102
post #91
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have adapted to monumental shifts in how we develop trust in society for as long as society has existed - from the printing press to photography to the Internet to CGI to ... I don't see this as any different. We will determine new ways of establishing trust. They'll certainly have flaws, as establishing trust in a society always has, but we'll learn to recognize those flaws and hopefully fix them. Beyond that, wh…

The big difference is, there was a very high bar to forging photographs, and most news was gated (with the ability to easily find, and sue those guilty of slander/libel). Now it's utterly simplistic to forge, to libel, to slander, and there is no easy path in many cases to sue. While you can say "yes, but..." to the above, that's the reality that we've lived with for 150 years, less extremely rare edge cases. All thi…

> The same is happening with all content on the internet. Realistically the web is now dead. It's now gone. Even things such as wikipedia are going to die, as over the next 2 to 3 years LLM output will become utterly and completely indistinguishable in all aspects.

Like I said, people have been saying this exact thing for a couple years now. I'm sure I'll be hearing the same in a couple more.

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#103
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLM’s are good at detecting patterns and like to continue the pattern. They’re starting with autocomplete for voice and training it to do something else. This is a great summary of almost everything that goes wrong with LLM applications. LLMs are autocomplete machines, which is why GitHub Copilot is still the most reliably useful application of LLM tech out there. The further you get from autocomplete, the less rel…

I'd respectfully disagree with this characterization of LLMs. While they certainly excel at pattern recognition, calling them mere "autocomplete machines" vastly undersells their capabilities. LLMs demonstrate complex reasoning, multi-modal understanding, and emergent behaviors that go well beyond simple pattern continuation. They've succeeded in areas like mathematical problem-solving, creative tasks, and various re…

Either this whole comment is from a GPT or the author is a major contributor to the GPT training dataset.

Anyway, LLMs are nothing more than very expansive error reduction algorithms. They don't reason. They store and manipulate meaning in an automated way, but they don't reason.

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#104
post #53
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to know, if LLMs were unleashed on simulating real-world people, how well could they predict everything they are going to say? In battles or business, how well would LLMs predict what people will do? Seems to me that a billion parameters can model decision making by a group of humans pretty well. Especially strategies to psych them out like anticipating everything they try ahead of time, and showing them it’s…

> how well could they predict everything they are going to say? Maybe they can predict preferences, not everything we are going to say

Would you like to volunteer and test that theory?

It’s stronger than a Turing test. You’d be competing against an AI to prove it’s really you and not an AI trained on what you have been posting. As determined by people who have been seeing you post this whole time.

Or even more interestingly — after you hit send, we’ll compare to the 5 versions of what the AI predicted you’d say, and calculate the “loss”.

If you lose, the AI can take over your account and use it to amass more karma for you (a measurable metric).

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#105
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLM’s are good at detecting patterns and like to continue the pattern. They’re starting with autocomplete for voice and training it to do something else. This is a great summary of almost everything that goes wrong with LLM applications. LLMs are autocomplete machines, which is why GitHub Copilot is still the most reliably useful application of LLM tech out there. The further you get from autocomplete, the less rel…

I'd respectfully disagree with this characterization of LLMs. While they certainly excel at pattern recognition, calling them mere "autocomplete machines" vastly undersells their capabilities. LLMs demonstrate complex reasoning, multi-modal understanding, and emergent behaviors that go well beyond simple pattern continuation. They've succeeded in areas like mathematical problem-solving, creative tasks, and various re…

I don't understand how anybody can still claim LLMs show "complex reasoning".

It's been shown time and time again that they'll produce a correct chain of reasoning when given a problem (e.g. wolf, goat, cabbage crossing a river; 3 guards and a door; etc.) that is roughly similar to what's in the training data but will fail when given a sufficiently novel modification _while still producing output that is confidently incorrect_.

My own recent experience was asking ChatGPT 3.5 to encode an x86 instruction into binary. It produced the correct result and a page of reasoning which was mostly correct, except 2 errors which if made by a human would be described as canceling each other out.

But GPT didn't make 2 errors, that's anthropomorphizing it. A human would start from the input and use other information plus logical steps to produce the output. An LLM produces a stream of text that is statistically similar to what a human would produce. In this particular case, it's statistics just weren't able to cover the middle of the text well enough but happened to cover the end. There was no "complex reasoning" linking the statements of the text to each other through logical inferences, there was simply text that is statistically likely to be arranged in that way.

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#106
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd respectfully disagree with this characterization of LLMs. While they certainly excel at pattern recognition, calling them mere "autocomplete machines" vastly undersells their capabilities. LLMs demonstrate complex reasoning, multi-modal understanding, and emergent behaviors that go well beyond simple pattern continuation. They've succeeded in areas like mathematical problem-solving, creative tasks, and various re…

I don't understand how anybody can still claim LLMs show "complex reasoning". It's been shown time and time again that they'll produce a correct chain of reasoning when given a problem (e.g. wolf, goat, cabbage crossing a river; 3 guards and a door; etc.) that is roughly similar to what's in the training data but will fail when given a sufficiently novel modification _while still producing output that is confidently…

Perhaps it’s because I know human beings that have the exact same operation and failure mode as the LLM here and I’m probably not the only one. Failing at something you’ve never seen and faking through it is a very human endeavor.

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#107
post #97
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making a very popular mistake: confusing the training procedure for LLMs (autocomplete) with "how they work"/their internal ontology (mostly unknown). When we teach children how to do arithmetic, we have them predict missing items in equations. We don't accuse them of "only doing autocomplete". The same applies for LLMs.

This is only a common mistake to the subset of people who labor under the delusion that we have actually stumbled upon Generalized Artificial Intelligence. We know how LLMs work fundamentally and what their limits are. LLMs are only able to make “correct sounding” statements which have the side effect of being correct a certain percentage of the time. They do not have the ability to reason nor engage in high level th…

> This is only a common mistake to the subset of people who labor under the delusion that we have actually stumbled upon Generalized Artificial Intelligence

That is technically true but deceptive: that subset is enormous! Skim any HN thread and you'll see many people talking about reasoning ability or how we just need a little more magic sauce and the "hallucination problem" will be solved. And a lot of what people say in this vein is not even wrong.

And that's just HN. Non-technical users are of course going to assume that if it looks like a duck and is dressed up as a duck by its creators, then it's a duck. Why wouldn't they? So I would claim that the subset is a majority.

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how anybody can still claim LLMs show "complex reasoning". It's been shown time and time again that they'll produce a correct chain of reasoning when given a problem (e.g. wolf, goat, cabbage crossing a river; 3 guards and a door; etc.) that is roughly similar to what's in the training data but will fail when given a sufficiently novel modification _while still producing output that is confidently…

Perhaps it’s because I know human beings that have the exact same operation and failure mode as the LLM here and I’m probably not the only one. Failing at something you’ve never seen and faking through it is a very human endeavor.

Regarding errors: I don't know the exact mechanism in the brain that causes humans to make them but i believe it's a combination of imperfect memory, attention span and general lack of determinism. None of these affect logical reasoning as performed by a machine.

Regarding faking it till making it: This is a more general point that there's a difference between simulating human behavior and logical reasoning.

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there will likely be open-weights versions of this sort of thing eventually. And there will probably be people who argue that it’s a good thing, somehow. If this technology is going to exist (which it is), do you think it would be more harmful for everybody to have access to it, or for only some group of elites (big business, your own government, somebody else government, criminal groups, whoever) to have access to…

Definitely less harmful if only the elites have it. It doesn't make them harder to kill, but it reduces proliferation. And "elites" per se isn't correlated with any political side, so it doesn't even change the culture war. Generally speaking if you think most of the danger of any technology comes from accidents, you want fewer people to have it and don't care too much which ones it is, though it'd be preferable if t…

> And "elites" per se isn't correlated with any political side, so it doesn't even change the culture war.

Only if you're looking at the more obvious but wrong culture war. Elites from both "sides" have more in common with each other than with the rest of humanity. We just don't notice the perspective they're pushing nearly as much because we're not being spoonfed the debate and rage-bait as we are with the left vs right conflict.

Re: ChatGPT unexpectedly began speaking in a user's cloned voice during testing

#110
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can someone pleasee convince why i shouldn't be absolutely shit out of my mind cynical about this innovation? we are literally seeing the downfall of trust in society. and no, i dont believe i am exaggerating

We have adapted to monumental shifts in how we develop trust in society for as long as society has existed - from the printing press to photography to the Internet to CGI to ... I don't see this as any different. We will determine new ways of establishing trust. They'll certainly have flaws, as establishing trust in a society always has, but we'll learn to recognize those flaws and hopefully fix them. Beyond that, wh…

Journalists need a system of digitally signing "News" as testimony so news outlets can verify the source of information.

We should train users to ignore news from unverified sources.

We should observe and track the reputation of journalists, and stop broadcasting testimony that is untrustworthy.

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