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Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

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Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#91

Post by stephc_int13 »

Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

Choosing between Rust or Swift is a false dichotomy.

Switching programming language (or game engine) mid-course is a well known suicidal move.

Who is asking them to use a different programming language? I am not a C++ fan, but it is a lot less risky to stick to it than switching, and this is true for any large projects ran by experts.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#92

Post by blueflow »

brigadier132 wrote: post #80
Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

> - Toxic community I think a lot of this is just rumors and maybe one or two high profile people. When I go to discord servers for rust and rust libraries, the help I get is as good as, if not better than support from companies I literally pay.

For years, whenever there was drama and shit-flinging in the OSS world, i looked up the people causing that on github and blocked them. Github has this feature that it warns you when you look at a repository where people you blocked contributed.

If you keep such a list, you'll easily recognize projects you better stay away from. For me, this was one of the reasons to keep away from Rust.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#93

Post by rahkiin »

stephen_g wrote: post #11
rvz wrote: post #4

I would have thought that Ladybird would be using a language that specifically guarantees memory safety which is Rust. But Swift is a very surprising choice but actually makes sense for a browser. The browser story is not great for Rust as we can only point to Servo which isn't ready to be used as a daily driver for millions of users. But Arc Browser is written with a combination of Swift and C++ to run on macOS and…

Swift is memory safe. The C++ interop thing I think is massive. But isn’t there also the problem that with Rust you can’t have the equivalent of shared pointers, so you can only have a single reference to one object (sorry I don’t really know Rust, just going from how this has been described to me) which apparently makes representing things like DOMs and abstract syntax trees an absolute nightmare?

And cannot have linked lists either. When you make a compiler in rust, basically you give everything the same lifetime and drop the memory at the very end. That allows cicular references. Or you use Rc, but that is against what purists want you to do. For longer lifetime programs with complex models the borrow checker becomes harder

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#94

Post by jml7c5 »

commodoreboxer wrote: post #77
skipkey wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be an age thing. When I was taught grammar 40 plus years ago, for someone of indeterminate sex, “he” was taught as always appropriate, “he or she” was a somewhat clunky alternative that was situationally appropriate where you were stressing the gender neutrality, and “they” was just simply bad grammar which would get you bad marks. I’m honestly not sure when that changed.

"They" as a gender neutral singular pronoun has never been bad grammar, and has been accepted in common use for many hundreds of years.

In casual use, yes. In formal writing, the broad switch to acceptance of singular "they" is only about 15 years old. Up until that point it's the sort of thing that would be flagged by an editor, or lose you marks in an English paper.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#95

Post by gjsman-1000 »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #91
Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

Choosing between Rust or Swift is a false dichotomy. Switching programming language (or game engine) mid-course is a well known suicidal move. Who is asking them to use a different programming language? I am not a C++ fan, but it is a lot less risky to stick to it than switching, and this is true for any large projects ran by experts.

C++ is a loaded gun, strapped to your body and aimed at your foot, with infinite bullets automatically firing every second, that requires you to constantly exert 25 lbs of force to tilt the gun and avoid hitting your foot.

Most of the time, you’ll be successful. However, nobody seeing your plight would be shocked if your foot eventually gets blown up. To claim this state of affairs is just fine because you’ve done it for years, pitiable.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#96

Post by breakfastduck »

yohannparis wrote: post #73
Thaxll wrote: post #27

Using Swift outside of Apple ecosystem seems like a bad idea, other platform are subparts.

Compiled Swift code cannot run on other platform? Curious, I never used it and I'm not aware of those limitations.

It can, the poster you're replying to is ill informed.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#97

Post by stephc_int13 »

christophilus wrote: post #88

For those who are worried, Andreas is a thoughtful dude. This decision was not made on a whim. Also, they’re not doing a massive rewrite: > The Swift team is also investing heavily in C++ interop, which means there's a real path to incremental adoption, not just gigantic rewrites. To me, the Tweet does a good job justifying the decision. I’m rooting for Ladybird, and I hope this decision pays off. A modern browser in…

I strongly disagree. This is not a justified decision, they just feel like it based either on vague and speculative reasons, or because they are funded to do so, I would not be surprised if they had discussions with the Swift marketing team.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#98

Post by jenadine »

spencerchubb wrote: post #50
rvense wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ladybird and Serenity have a policy of not allowing any sort of expression of or reference to someone's sexuality or gender identity, as this is deemed "divisive" or "politicising". Rust does... not have that.

if that is their stated policy, they don't seem to follow it very well since they use 'he' in documentation

Not anymore https://github.com/SerenityOS/serenity/pull/24648

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#99

Post by commodoreboxer »

Affric wrote: post #7

============================== Andreas Kling @awesomekling · 44m My general thoughts on Rust: - Excellent for short-lived programs that transform input A to output B - Clunky for long-lived programs that maintain large complex object graphs - Really impressive ecosystem - Toxic community ==============================

I'd drop the "long-lived" and "short-lived" from the first two points. Rust is great for long lived programs, and is extremely clunky for managing any kind of object graph in general. The lifetime of the program has little to do with it, so I'm confused by those qualifiers. I've written plenty of Rust software that has run uninterrupted for years.

I've seen way more people complaining about Rust evangelism and toxicity than I've seen of Rust evangelism or toxicity itself, especially here on HN. Even "Rewrite it in Rust" is something I've mostly only ever seen as a denigrating joke (and usually in response to a project choosing to be rewritten in Rust, not even to calls to rewrite something in Rust). I'm starting to wonder if the Rust toxicity and evangelism are more meme than reality.

Re: Ladybird browser to start using Swift language this fall

#100

Post by keybored »

stephc_int13 wrote: post #97
christophilus wrote: post #88

For those who are worried, Andreas is a thoughtful dude. This decision was not made on a whim. Also, they’re not doing a massive rewrite: > The Swift team is also investing heavily in C++ interop, which means there's a real path to incremental adoption, not just gigantic rewrites. To me, the Tweet does a good job justifying the decision. I’m rooting for Ladybird, and I hope this decision pays off. A modern browser in…

I strongly disagree. This is not a justified decision, they just feel like it based either on vague and speculative reasons, or because they are funded to do so, I would not be surprised if they had discussions with the Swift marketing team.

How do you know?
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