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How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

nytimes.com

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Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#211

Post by Symmetry »

elorant wrote: post #41
paulhauggis wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point, I doubt it will help. Why? The cartels thrive in countries where you can essentially buy off any official. When you legalize drugs, they aren't going to suddenly stop selling it. They will now have a legal business which will continue to fund their criminal empires. We most likely will see an increase in other crimes, like extortion and kidnapping. Drugs are still illegal in the US and we don't really…

Legalizing drugs means that the street price will drop by 90% and that will eventually make drug trafficking obsolete. This of course doesn't solve the real problem which is consumption.

When the US legalized alcohol its use doubled, but alcohol abuse only went up around 15%. That is, people who will only use a substance if its legal will tend to use it responsibly. I expect that if we legalized other intoxicants they'd mostly displace alcohol, which would actually be a public health win for many currently illegal drugs. For the others, I expect that having the FDA ensuring a pure supply would be enough to make it a net good idea, even if its one with disadvantages.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#212

Post by lolcraft »

Willy_Wonka wrote: post #203
guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

No crime, barring [b]child slavery[/b]. http://vision.ucsd.edu/~kbranson/stopchocolateslavery/ataste... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_in_cocoa_production Top comment, and many comments totally oblivious to the realities of life. Not surprising for HN, sadly. Keep those libertarian blinkers on boys!

See, the thing is that, when a legal company is caught enslaving children, they get massive political, social, moral and economic pressure to stop. For instance, Nike and its famous sweatshops.

If your business is illegal, however, you're neck deep in shit already, so the marginal benefit for stopping is almost zero. Twenty to fourty years added to a life sentence.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#213

Post by justincormack »

kitsune_ wrote: post #195
xelipe wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalizing drugs by itself does not imply that the price of drugs will fall and that the violence will end. Lest not forget that, in Latin American, revolutions have been fought because of the impact of the exploitation of the people and land for the cultivation of commodity products such as bananas (see Banana Wars in Wikipedia) and for which gangs like La Mara are a consequence. Drugs for personal use are legal in…

Is coca that different from tomatoes? I mean, is it, all things considered, harder to produce cocaine than ketchup? If fully legalized, shouldn't the price of cocaine be similar to ketchup? The reason that cocaine is as expensive as it is, stems from its illegality. And subsequently, the only reason that the cartels were able to grow to such monstrous proportions is the amount of money that can be made with the produ…

Coffee is a better comparison than ketchup. Tomatoes grow more widely.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#215

Post by joejohnson »

guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

Sadly, I think if the US were to decriminalize all drugs, the most drastic changes would be seen in Mexico and central american countries. So, what incentive does the US have to help out poorer nations which supply us with drugs? These countries suffer the majority of the negative externalities associated with the drug trade, and supply for drugs thoroughly meets demand in the US, with minor unpleasantness north of the border.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#216

Post by marknutter »

guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

Won't they just shift to the next most profitable illegal good or service?

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#217

Post by schiffern »

mikescar wrote: post #174
rwmj wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this and wonder how bad it needs to get before politicians take legalisation seriously. 50,000 people dead? - check. Billions in profit? - check. Narco-states on the US border? - check. Criminals walk out of prison? - check. Gigantic crack & methaphetamine problem within the US? - check.

Very well said. The media generally doesn't specify and inter-relate the problems or state them as plainly. Having a gigantic drug war going on right across the US border in Mexico is a crazy thing to begin with. Add to that it's about owning territory to import drugs into the US, to feed a large demand. Plus the cartels make bales of money on marijuana sales, when it could easily be a huge cash crop for so many US c…

Legalize 'em all. It's unpopular, but it's the only solution that doesn't lead to ever-increasing authoritarianism.

Drugs don't destroy lives, addiction does. Prohibition drives addicts underground. This makes the problem harder to solve, not easier.

The legal status of tobacco and alcohol are proof-positive that biology isn't the metric that's used. It's politics and big business, pure and simple.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#218

Post by koide »

WayneDB wrote: post #206
koide wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bah, there is plenty of slavery without complicit governments. Typical example: Criminals lure naive poor country girls with prospects of lots of money and a job elsewhere. As soon as they arrive to the destination country, they are held captive (they steal everything they own, and use violence) and then used as prostitutes. I fail to see government help in this scheme.

"The government" is absolutely complicit in that crime because they turn a blind eye to it. Do you think that the cops don't know about Backpage or other prostitution outlets? Do you think that law enforcement is impervious to corruption?

I don't know about the US, but in other countries, slavery prostitution outlets are indeed persecuted and closed once found. Other prostitution outlets are tolerated (or encouraged.)

My point is even assuming incorruptible law enforcement, these outlets would still exist, might last less if you wish.

From there to saying it's a government sponsored slavery is a big step.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#219

Post by abalashov »

peregrine wrote: post #20
fkn wrote: post #15

I'd be interested in knowing how they were able to buy Boeing 747s. Those are huge transactions, you can't simply buy planes with cash. I would assume that it would be through shell companies, but wouldn't (or shouldn't) Boeing be careful about who their customers are?

Times are not great for plane airlines, I'm sure a struggling airline CEO would have no issue selling a plane to ShellCorp with a large bag of money.

Airlines in the developed world almost never own planes, especially in the dimensions of any typical commercial airliner. The other problems that plane ownership brings (besides routine maintenance, which the airlines do own) are outside the desired core competency of airlines. The leasing of aircraft to commercial airlines is quite an industry in itself, and the transactions often involve complex, multilateral bond financing. There are almost always complex financing arrangements involved. Few buy a 737 with a bag of cash anymore than one buys a skyscraper outright. It is done by some of the world's less creditworthy airlines, and American has a penchant for owning, but it is increasingly not the normal industrial practice. Investors go in on planes just as they do on any other massively expensive capital goods.

Thus, the key for a drug cartel would be to get the various intermediaries involved in the aircraft leasing and financing process (some of which are surely quite corruptible) to lease one to ShellCorp, or buy on the secondary market, as some have suggested.

The bigger mystery for me is how they manage to fly in the context of overall international airspace control and air traffic control. Like someone else said, a 747 can't take off and land on a desolate patch of grass. Law enforcement and intelligence aren't stupid; they know how much money is in the "air charter" business, and it definitely won't pay for a 747. Charter companies use much smaller aircraft.

Edit: Unlike airlines, drug cartels actually do have the cash to buy a $138m plane outright, yes. But that would set off enormous alarm bells, because nobody otherwise obscure does that.

Edit: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/10/business/10flyboy.html?_r=...

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#220

Post by hexagonal »

blhack wrote: post #21
tgrass wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a conspicuous blimp that flies about sixty miles to the north. I'm not sure of drones. I camp out there a lot and have never seen them. [edit] it's an aerostat, not a blimp: Fort Huachuca is about fifteen miles to the north and "is home to a radar-equipped aerostat, one of a series maintained for the Drug Enforcement Administration by Lockheed Martin. The aerostat is based northeast of Garden Canyon and, when…

Well...the drones aren't exactly huge, and they're flying really high up in the air, so it's doubtful that you'd see them.

The MQ-1 has a wingspan of two dozen feet, and a service ceiling of 26,000 feet. (ten thousand feet lower than a 747) It's also got a pretty tinny piston engine, with a fairly distinctive sound.

Think more "cessna with missiles" than "RC plane".

EDIT: Just checked the wikipedia pages for both:

			MQ-1 Predator	Cessna 172
	Wingspan	8.22m		11m
	Gross weight	1,020kg		1,111kg
	Service ceil.	25,000ft	13,500ft
	Cruise speed	90kn		122kn
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