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Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

jalopnik.com

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Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#61

Post by inamberclad »

vel0city wrote: post #50
chrisandchris wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it shouldn't have happened. > Boeing removed the Starliner’s autonomous undocking feature from its software. The aerospace manufacturer wants to push a software update to the spacecraft in orbit, but NASA fears it could do more damage. I'm very far away from NASA internals, but as I've seen them in the "older" days was that just a _finished_ product went into space and they would not allow to go into space wi…

I think its dumb they couldn't have both software profiles available and be able to choose manual or auto, but the original mission did not call for autonomous undocking.

NASA may be taking a different approach, but in civilian aerospace it is prohibited to have code that doesn't run or doesn't trace to a system requirement. I assume that was their rationale for removing it.

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#62

Post by wongarsu »

vel0city wrote: post #50
chrisandchris wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree it shouldn't have happened. > Boeing removed the Starliner’s autonomous undocking feature from its software. The aerospace manufacturer wants to push a software update to the spacecraft in orbit, but NASA fears it could do more damage. I'm very far away from NASA internals, but as I've seen them in the "older" days was that just a _finished_ product went into space and they would not allow to go into space wi…

I think its dumb they couldn't have both software profiles available and be able to choose manual or auto, but the original mission did not call for autonomous undocking.

Starliner was already suffering delays at every step. They probably thought they could shave off a couple weeks by only qualifying the parts of the software absolutely needed for the mission and removing everything else

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#63

Post by snotrockets »

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #55
snotrockets wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solve two birds with one stone and nationalize SpaceX.

How would that accomplish either of the two?

You are no longer dependent on the whims of a private company and its shareholders, but bring in the regulatory regime of public service. Also reduce costs as unlike private enterprise, public service need not provide fiscal revenues.

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#64

Post by eschneider »

spankalee wrote: post #56
eschneider wrote: post #34

How could they possibly screw up so badly that a SW update would brick the thing? Did they forget the logic to just reboot to last good/factory FW in case of failure? This feels like the story they're telling isn't the real story because that's just basic, basic shit that gets beaten on all the time during development.

You're used to consumer software updates that have been tested over literally billions of updates. And they're brilliant - they mostly just work well enough that you don't expect your phone or computer to get bricked during one. But there are rare cases where something goes wrong and they do get bricked. For something like the first ever software update in space, I'd expect the chances of something catastrophic happe…

I'm used to writing bootloaders and firmware update systems for heavy equipment with impatient users who do terrible, terrible things to their hardware. Remote software updates fail all the time, for all sorts of reasons, but the things you need to do to come back up 'no worse than when you started' has been known for years.

If you make any sort of device and your updates can brick the device, you suck at what you do.

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#65

Post by vel0city »

inamberclad wrote: post #61
vel0city wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its dumb they couldn't have both software profiles available and be able to choose manual or auto, but the original mission did not call for autonomous undocking.

NASA may be taking a different approach, but in civilian aerospace it is prohibited to have code that doesn't run or doesn't trace to a system requirement. I assume that was their rationale for removing it.

This same base capsule design is also supposed to operate autonomously. It previously attempted an autonomous docking. The code was written, it was approved for flight previously. It is not like "autonomous docking" was never a part of the specification for this model of craft; it just wasn't the expected process for this particular mission.

Boeing just didn't bother to make it so the mission could potentially be changed in-flight, they just decided they'll load a software profile on the ground and that missions will just never change.

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#66

Post by boxed »

snotrockets wrote: post #63
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that accomplish either of the two?

You are no longer dependent on the whims of a private company and its shareholders, but bring in the regulatory regime of public service. Also reduce costs as unlike private enterprise, public service need not provide fiscal revenues.

That was total nonsense. Don't shoot the golden goose.

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#67

Post by wongarsu »

snotrockets wrote: post #59
stronglikedan wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't feel like that. It is like that. Companies are their own entities, separate from the people that run them, and you can't put a company in jail. This muddies the water as to who can be held accountable and prosecuted.

Putting people in jail shouldn’t be an end goal. There are two reasons to jail a person: 1. Prohibit them from causing further harm. 2. Revenge. The latter, I hope were better than that. And to prohibit the possible offenders here, no need to jail them. Just forbid them from serving in capacity that can cause such harm: bar them from serving in executive or decision making role.

Those are not the only reasons to put people in jail. There is also 3. Deterring others from similar actions, and 4. Rehabilitation.

Number 4 obviously doesn't apply in the US justice system, but number 3, deterrence, is imho the major argument for putting executives or employees in prison. The threat of punishment can be a strong motivator, especially in corporate settings. But it only works if punishments are actually delivered after someone crosses the line

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#68

Post by mynameisvlad »

eschneider wrote: post #64
spankalee wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're used to consumer software updates that have been tested over literally billions of updates. And they're brilliant - they mostly just work well enough that you don't expect your phone or computer to get bricked during one. But there are rare cases where something goes wrong and they do get bricked. For something like the first ever software update in space, I'd expect the chances of something catastrophic happe…

I'm used to writing bootloaders and firmware update systems for heavy equipment with impatient users who do terrible, terrible things to their hardware. Remote software updates fail all the time, for all sorts of reasons, but the things you need to do to come back up 'no worse than when you started' has been known for years. If you make any sort of device and your updates can brick the device, you suck at what you do…

Your heavy equipment with impatient users is also magnitudes less catastrophic in the event of a failure.

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#69

Post by wongarsu »

snotrockets wrote: post #63
DiggyJohnson wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would that accomplish either of the two?

You are no longer dependent on the whims of a private company and its shareholders, but bring in the regulatory regime of public service. Also reduce costs as unlike private enterprise, public service need not provide fiscal revenues.

SpaceX isn't publicly traded, it already has no obligation to maximize profits. It is free to follow whichever goals Musk and the SpaceX investors set for the company.

So far those goals mostly involve building cash cows in service of financing even higher goals. I'm not sure if that goal is still Mars, but whatever it is they are reinvesting everything and regularly take in more investments

Re: Boeing Starliner could brick ISS docking port if crew abandons it

#70

Post by eschneider »

mynameisvlad wrote: post #68
eschneider wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm used to writing bootloaders and firmware update systems for heavy equipment with impatient users who do terrible, terrible things to their hardware. Remote software updates fail all the time, for all sorts of reasons, but the things you need to do to come back up 'no worse than when you started' has been known for years. If you make any sort of device and your updates can brick the device, you suck at what you do…

Your heavy equipment with impatient users is also magnitudes less catastrophic in the event of a failure.

Not for my users. And there are enough of them out there that if there was some incredibly rare problem that only happened in 1/50000 installs, you would be getting a lot of complaints. Seriously, this is something that can be made bulletproof, if one cares to.
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