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XMPP vs. Matrix

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#51

Post by tupolef »

I went from hosting XMPP to Matrix and then XMPP again in the last 10 years.

- I'm now sure that I will never convert anyone to Matrix or host a Matrix server again.

- Matrix big issues for me are that it's not really decentralized and this design impacts the server admin, the performances and the user's privacy.

- I'm still not happy with XMPP clients for Linux, most are missing Omemo or automatic turn/stun discovery and Dino is in in alpha and bugged.

- I'm sur that XMPP will have a community in 20 years, not sure about Matrix.

Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#52

Post by ementally »

dngray wrote: post #23
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Routing data between servers and networks you literally control. There is simply no possible discussion on this point. A centralized service doesn't allow that choice. Leaking metadata to a centralized service is simply inevitable by pure physics.

> Routing data between servers and networks you literally control This isn't always the case, not every user is a server admin. Also for group chats other server admins will certainly know what data your requesting. TLDR is that XMPP is not a private protocol, and that was never its intention. It was actually very centralized in it's original usage and the designers clearly envisaged similar usage to email ie $compan…

https://simplex.chat/ has lesser metadata than Signal[1][2], Matrix and XMPP. SimpleX Chat is going to move to Groups V2[3] very soon to make the experience much better.

[1]: https://www.ndss-symposium.org/ndss-paper/improving-signals-...

[2]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2305.09799

[3]: https://github.com/simplex-chat/simplex-chat/issues/4620#iss...

Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#53

Post by [deleted] »

Fell wrote: post #7

In order to answer this question it is important to understand the fundamental difference between XMPP and Matrix. XMPP was invented at a time, where communicating online meant sending a message from one device to another. However, the modern expectations for messaging apps are much more than that. Sending media, using multiple devices, deleting messages, editing messages, read receipts, notifications when typing, gr…

[deleted]

Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#54

Post by esbeeb »

I run Prosody XMPP server on a cheap VPS, and appreciate how it's a stock Debian package, greatly simplifying security updates. It's delightfully lightweight on the server.

I use Conversations as a client in Android, and Gajim in Linux.

The basics like OMEMO, file attachments, push-to-talk voice memos (in Conversations, but not Gajim) work well. All comms are at least client-to-server-encrypted, and the OMEMO-protected comms are end-to-end encrypted.

Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#55

Post by nibbusu »

kreetx wrote: post #3

Prefix title with "Ask HN:"!

I’m really sorry, this was my first post and I completely forgot about it. Will do next time! And thank you for pointing this out. Definitely will remember that in the future.

Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#57

Post by Tmpod »

tupolef wrote: post #51

I went from hosting XMPP to Matrix and then XMPP again in the last 10 years. - I'm now sure that I will never convert anyone to Matrix or host a Matrix server again. - Matrix big issues for me are that it's not really decentralized and this design impacts the server admin, the performances and the user's privacy. - I'm still not happy with XMPP clients for Linux, most are missing Omemo or automatic turn/stun discover…

Could you elaborate your points? I'm particularly interested in "Matrix isn't really decentralized" and on which XMPP client you're using on Linux.

Thanks!

Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#58

Post by inputmice »

dngray wrote: post #13
AshamedCaptain wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have criticized omemo in the past -- it breaks backwards compatibility way too readily resulting in XMPP clients not being able to talk to each other in levels that I hadn't seen since the Jingle debacles. However I just can't stand this article's tone (the accompanying imagery doesn't help), and then he has the balls to complain about the rude response he gets from the spec authors (even showing it off as if to el…

The main reason we won't list it on privacyguides.org is the encryption is not always on by default. There are two major problems, the implementations and the fact the spec isn't specific. I'm not particularly bothered by the imaginary, the dude is a furry what do you expect? Some furry bloggers do have pictures throughout their blog posts to split things up and lighten things. As for the reply from the spec author,…

> and attacks like this are just downright scary

> https://notes.valdikss.org.ru/jabber.ru-mitm/

With an up to date Conversations on a modern server we have a pretty good chance to detect or prevent that style of attack due to a mechanism called SASL Channel Binding.

Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#59

Post by some_furry »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #15
dngray wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason we won't list it on privacyguides.org is the encryption is not always on by default. There are two major problems, the implementations and the fact the spec isn't specific. I'm not particularly bothered by the imaginary, the dude is a furry what do you expect? Some furry bloggers do have pictures throughout their blog posts to split things up and lighten things. As for the reply from the spec author,…

> the dude is a furry what do you expect? Some furry bloggers do have pictures throughout their blog posts to split things up and lighten things. Lighten things? Are you saying that putting images of cartoon characters puking at the logos of your product lightens things and provokes healthy discussion? Don't try to make this into thinking I'm criticizing furriness -- it's definitely not about that. > There is a fair…

> Are you saying that putting images of cartoon characters puking at the logos of your product lightens things and provokes healthy discussion?

The image in question does not contain puking. That's a tongue, not vomit.

https://bunnypa.ws/sticker/CAACAgEAAxUAAWByYjqChwgli1QKv81yw...

Here's another from the same artist: https://bunnypa.ws/sticker/CAACAgEAAxUAAV91eRTulCrBXcKzxCrPY...

It contains a disgusted reaction. The logos in question are visually "muddying the waters", too.

Re: XMPP vs. Matrix

#60

Post by inputmice »

dngray wrote: post #6

Also relevant https://soatok.blog/2024/08/04/against-xmppomemo/ recently. It's quite critical of some of the code quality of common implementations as well as the fracturing across different clients. As for Matrix, probably element is the main client you want to use. I use Nheko on Linux.

> Also relevant https://soatok.blog/2024/08/04/against-xmppomemo/ recently.

Signal, Matrix, Telegram, XMPP; Use whatever you want. But there is a lot of FUD if not outright lies in that blog post. The author looked at Conversations for all but five minutes, desperately trying to dig up some dirt.

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