How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions • Hacker News Board

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#131

Post by base698 » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:34 PM UTC

elorant wrote: post #103

debacle wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why isn't cocaine legalized? Honest question - I've never done it nor have a I done a ton of research.

Because there's always the risk that someone will try it out of curiosity. And since it's a highly addictive drug you might end up causing more problems than you intend to solve.

Quick thought experiment...

Same addict in two societies.

Society 1) Drugs are regulated in pretty much the same ways they are in the US, and because of this prices are high. The addict may have a family or maybe not, but has bills to pay. He spends all his money on drugs leading to neglect of his bills. He gets arrested and is now unable to hold down a job. This leads into other problems after he gets out of legal trouble. He now has to steal to obtain the drugs.

Society 2) Drugs are largely decriminalized and cheap enough that a days supply for any addict don't break the bank. He doesn't lose his job because of legal ramifications and he just spends all his free time doing cocaine. He doesn't have to steal to obtain the drugs.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#132

Post by Osiris » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:34 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #54

dsrguru wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that would reduce violent crime, it would also sanction people using recreational drugs besides alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine. Many voters and politicians find it against their religious or moral beliefs to allow other people to do recreational drugs besides the ones they themselves are doing.

Arguably it would take time for the violent crime to subside. A culture of violence does not vanish over night, but rather over generations. My prediction is Mexico's violent crime spilling over to the US resulting in a drug war surge (both already happening to some degree.) In the background, regulators slowly loosen up laws as to not lose face (would explain the toleration of medical marijuana.) I can only imagine…

One of the articles points is that violence is used because there are no other means to settle disputes. In a legal atmosphere, the legal system could be used instead of violence.

In additional, legalization would cause prices to crash because the risk would drop significantly. Even so, in a legal environment there would still be a black market because regulations would still impose restrictions, but it would be more like teenagers paying homeless guys to buy beer and cigarettes.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#133

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:34 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #54

dsrguru wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that would reduce violent crime, it would also sanction people using recreational drugs besides alcohol, tobacco, and caffeine. Many voters and politicians find it against their religious or moral beliefs to allow other people to do recreational drugs besides the ones they themselves are doing.

Arguably it would take time for the violent crime to subside. A culture of violence does not vanish over night, but rather over generations. My prediction is Mexico's violent crime spilling over to the US resulting in a drug war surge (both already happening to some degree.) In the background, regulators slowly loosen up laws as to not lose face (would explain the toleration of medical marijuana.) I can only imagine…

[deleted]

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#134

Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:37 PM UTC

guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

The problem isn't gangs; it's gang violence. Making their crimes less stringently punished (reducing the paranoia within their ranks) as well as doing more to restrict the flow of arms from the United States (a better use of funds than incarcerating college potheads) seems a more sensible experiment to try before full legalisation.

Consider the negative externalities of cocaine use (much higher than marijuana's); the healthcare implications and effects on worker productivity are costs that would need to be covered by a heavy tax. That, in turn, would make smuggling profitable.

Legalising cocaine would cause its price to plummet. This would cut into cartels' profits but also spur demand. I'm not sure if I want to walk around the street with people high on bath salts and cocaine. Perhaps in a highly controlled environment? That still leaves a profitable opening for illegal distribution.

For Mexico it makes sense to decriminalise; the United States would bear the cost of use while it could potentially build a viable industry in cocaine processing. It makes similar sense for the US to pressure Mexico to do otherwise up to the expected public cost of higher cocaine use in America.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#135

Post by Androsynth » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:38 PM UTC

jimmar wrote: post #99

guelo wrote: post #31

The only way to stop these large criminal enterprises is to legalize the stuff. Just like alcohol prohibition created some of the most notorious American criminals, South American drug prohibitions produce powerful criminals down there. There isn't any large crime related to South American cocoa or coffee imports. Legalize it and then spend money and make laws regulating consumption, it would greatly reduce the miser…

I don't think drug legalization is the final answer the problem of cartels. Like the article says, '“The goal of these folks is not to sell drugs,” Tony Placido, who was the top intelligence official at the D.E.A. until he retired last year, told me. “It’s to earn a spendable profit and live to enjoy it.”' If you shut down their income from drugs, they will find another way to make money. I had the opportunity to tal…

Kidnapping is not nearly as scalable an operation as drug trafficking.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#136

Post by ChuckMcM » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:38 PM UTC

cdibona wrote: post #120

ChuckMcM wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to say the same thing, you see a lot of them parked on the tarmac in Mojave with out of business livery or sometimes just painted white. There have been stories of folks laundering money in the middle east where there are apparently a lot of 'cash' jobs that take US currency, still the cartoon picture of the pallets of cash was pretty hilarious. I wonder if you could trade a pallet of cash for a check fro…

Tunnel boring machines are extremely difficult to buy and more difficult still to run without oversight. They're just incredibly complex and hard to maintain machines. It's not impossible mind you , I mean, the cartels have all kinds of expertise available to them, but consider that the cartels have access to humans enslaved by their drug habits. Many people, fueled by cocaine, with picks and shovels can make short w…

You are much more practical than I am Chris. Looking at what humans, motivated by gold, did to the Sierras I'd have to concur it would be far simpler to do it your way.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#137

Post by Osiris » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:38 PM UTC

ElCabron wrote: post #121

dllthomas wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAH, but this runs counter to my understanding. The Opium Wars are closer to what we are currently fighting, than to the results of legalization. The British (Mexico) wanted to sell opium to the Chinese (US) when it was against Chinese (US) law. There is a significant difference in that Mexico technically forbids this activity too, of course, while the British did not, but legalization by the US would move it furth…

It's impossible to run an organization like this for so long and with profits so large, without the help of some (lets call them corrupt) FBI/CIA/DEA agents or politicians inside US. I may be just a sheep but the shepherd and the dogs are always working together. We are driven to believe that all this is Columbia+Mexico vs US conflict when in reality there may be an invisible and silent war inside every country (not…

The article clearly pointed out that corruption is the biggest contributor to the continued survival of the cartels. If, somehow, we were able to make everyone in law enforcement and the government honest, then the cartels would find it significantly harder, if not practically impossible, to do smuggle their goods.

It does seem like the war on drugs could be fought more by addressing those that are supposed to be fighting it and removing corruption. Perhaps huge pay increases and bonuses for turning in people that attempt to bribe?

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#138

Post by base698 » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:38 PM UTC

MattRogish wrote: post #108

bmelton wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of note, since I was curious as to the answer myself and just found out, there are still 'gangs' (though less the urban variety we're used to seeing) based around moonshining. That prompted me to ask "why is moonshining illegal", and the best (wrong) answer I could come up with was for production and delivery to dry counties. Turns out, it's just a matter of taxation. Moonshiners are welcome to go legit, but they the…

That's an interesting point that I've never considered (or heard mentioned in the legalize argument). I'm for legalization + taxation of all drugs but will we still see significant folks producing and selling illegally as a tax dodge? May legalization merely get drugs into more hands but still maintain significant illegal production? If so, a lot of the supposed benefits of legalization dry up.

It depends on what the markup is. You can't have taxes that equal current costs. If that was the case the market would largely stay the same.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#139

Post by Uhhrrr » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:40 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #92

jlmendezbonini wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Drugs are still illegal in the US and we don't really see >the same kind of crime in our country because the police >actually (for the most part) do their job. I strongly disagree with your statement. Police? Mexico is not using your usual police officers to fight drug violence neither Colombia. They are using highly trained military forces. Why? Cartels have very advance military equipment that is, sometimes, even…

"Police? Mexico is not using your usual police officers to fight drug violence neither Colombia. They are using highly trained military forces. Why? Cartels have very advance military equipment" If you read the article, you'd see the reason Colombia and Mexico use the military is mainly because the cartels own the police. Virtually ever person has been bribed. That's the core problem here.

...and if US users can grow their own, legally, in their backyards, then that bribery money goes away.

Re: How a Mexican Drug Cartel Makes Its Billions

#140

Post by theorique » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 10:44 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #95

praptak wrote: post #37

I admit that I (in a way) root for those guys. If they can move around such quantities of physical illegal stuff then we can be sure we can move around any strings of bits we choose to.

It is a matter of priorities - drug enforcement isn't high up the agenda. The DEA has a budget of $2.4 billion. The NSA's budget is classified, but most analysts estimate it's at least $6 billion - over double that of the DEA. And that's just one intelligence agency. The total intelligence budget of the USA is $80 billion. Cartels could easily be dismantled if the will and money was there - it isn't, because we would…

The drug trade provides a great way for three letter agencies to transport money, men, and materiel around different parts of the world.

For example, the recently deceased Jon P. Roberts of Cocaine Cowboys infamy (great book, btw) is alleged to have become a CIA asset in his later years, after he was captured and removed from the cocaine importing business.