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Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

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Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#171

Post by g15jv2dp »

hnthrow289570 wrote: post #67
rafaelmn wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

F# has it's own warts, tooling isn't as polished, stuff like type providers sound really cool but suck in practice IMO, file ordering being relevant for compilation is bleh... Every time I try to use it I'm left with a feeling it's not worth the hassle over C#. C# has been quite nice for 10 years and they keep improving consistently with every version.

The language itself is nice, the code bases that companies produce with it is not, and sadly that reputation plays into your decision to choose a career stack. You're going to have patterns from the .NET Framework era being ported to .NET Core projects. It works, but you'll have two paradigms of doing things mixed into your project. I envy people who only do hobbyist C# so get to work on code bases that have all the…

Are the codebases produced by companies in other languages nicer?

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#172

Post by vips7L »

sanex wrote: post #165
darby_nine wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And nothing gets even fucking close in terms of productivity to C#. C# gets compared to java a lot for a good reason, and yet the languages and ecosystems have since diverged in their priorities and abilities. This gets even more complicated when considering F# and Scala. Do you think Java would offer similar productivity, or are there aspects to the C# that are—in your personal experience—uniquely productive?

I wrote c# professionally for 8 years and now have switched to a codebase mostly in Java and some kotlin. I know some of this is learning curve but none of those things mentioned are anywhere close in JVM. Build systems, package management, close IDE integration for test runners, builds, etc. The ability for the IDE to even know what version of Java you want the project to run in even though it's defined in the proje…

This is definitely all just a learning curve on how to do this. None of this is accurate at all.

- IntelliJ knows exactly what version of Java you want to run and develop against.

- Async is also trivial. Just fire off a virtual thread.

- it sounds like your company just picked a bad orm. Any good one is going to escape sql injection when binding variables. You are using binding right? If you to “write it in Java” there is also jOOQ.

The one thing I do think C# is far superior at is packaging and distribution. It’s beyond simple to package a C# application into stand alone binary, whether is be AOT or JIT.

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#173

Post by celdon25 »

lmm wrote: post #166
tester756 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been writing C, C++, C# and some js/sql/ts/python for money. Lua for lulz. And *nothing* gets even fucking close in terms of productivity to C#. Great language, mature and robust ecosystem with sane compilation times and great tooling: package manager, test runner, strong debugger, one CLI with almost all tools needed. I wish C++ was half as enjoyable as C# is.

Typescript is pretty competitive with C# on those factors in my experience. What do you find yourself missing there?

The types are more expressive but it’s a weak type system under the hood (JS). The ecosystem is full of dependency hell and bloat. You’re also even further removed from the metal than what C# provides for.

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#174

Post by tkubacki »

sanex wrote: post #165
darby_nine wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And nothing gets even fucking close in terms of productivity to C#. C# gets compared to java a lot for a good reason, and yet the languages and ecosystems have since diverged in their priorities and abilities. This gets even more complicated when considering F# and Scala. Do you think Java would offer similar productivity, or are there aspects to the C# that are—in your personal experience—uniquely productive?

I wrote c# professionally for 8 years and now have switched to a codebase mostly in Java and some kotlin. I know some of this is learning curve but none of those things mentioned are anywhere close in JVM. Build systems, package management, close IDE integration for test runners, builds, etc. The ability for the IDE to even know what version of Java you want the project to run in even though it's defined in the proje…

I went from C# to JVM/gradle and have the opposite experience.

1) default C# IDE is junk compared to IntelliJ 2) Gradle give you insane level of control over project you can even build dynamic template tasks shown in IntelliJ UI using Kotlin/Groovy 3) JVM ecosystem is much bigger and default framework SpringBoot is ready to use with houndreds of integrations which are either non existent or hards to use in .NET as opposed to SpringBoot where you have batteries included approach e.g. want outbox pattern? Simply use modulith, convention over configuration will give you some nice defaults… 4) There are plenty of widely used langs compared to .NET if you don’t like modern Java (which is on the same level as C# IMHO) you have: Kotlin which is a better lang than C#, Scala, Groovy from the mainstream ones and Clojure and probably many more lesser known. 5) There is nothing as expressive as Groovy Spock for testing in .Net world.

There are issues I see but can be easy mitigated e.g. I don’t like default Java heavy ORM (especially mapping complicated two way relations) but it’s very easy to not use them and simply relay on mapping foreign key.

To sum it up I bet your issues are mostly you don’t know ecosystem well enough.

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#175

Post by [deleted] »

ComputerGuru wrote: post #8

Every time the question of preferred programming languages comes up, I'm usually in the extreme minority with my preferences being Rust (for small/fast) and C# (for productive and easy, where GC is acceptable), a combination that doesn't seem to appeal to too many people. But for the projects that fall right about in the middle where it could go either way and I could see either language working, I almost always pick…

[deleted]

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#176

Post by [deleted] »

riizade wrote: post #143

I don't have anything insightful to add, I just want to add my voice to the choir of people saying that after using sum types, working in a language without them feels unnecessarily restrictive and awkward. If this feature were implemented, it would take C# to a top contender for a daily driver language for me, and would make me feel a lot more confident in choosing it for projects where the C# ecosystem is already p…

[deleted]

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#177

Post by [deleted] »

ctenb wrote: post #32

I find it strange and slightly confusing that tey call it "union types". The correct term would be "sum types" or "discriminated union types", union types being the union of two types with no distinctive tag between the two cases. E.g. |Int ∪ Int| ≡ |Int|, while |Int + Int| ≡ 2 |Int|

[deleted]

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#178

Post by giancarlostoro »

lmm wrote: post #167
giancarlostoro wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's not a single widely distributed infra application in C# out there. Azure has entered the chat. Microsoft Orleans has entered the chat. ASP .NET Core has entered the chat. Ever played Halo online? Used StackOverflow? (very likely) Visited any website on Azure? (most likely) Microsoft Orleans (Virtual Actor framework) powers the Halo server infrastructure since at least 2011 if not sooner, which arguably the…

None of those are "widely distributed". They're all things that either MS themselves or MS-oriented shops run internally. No-one's writing a database server or identity management system or source code repository or business intelligence tool or even something like a linter in cross-platform C#. Unless you're a Windows shop, it's just not a first-class ecosystem.

You really should google before you make remarks... I'm also going to ignore the widely distributed remark because it is ridiculous.

> No-one's writing a database server

RavenDB, which can be run in a cluster, and uses less CPU (and I've read memory) than MongoDB itself.

There's also a recent C# based redis drop-in replacement that outperforms redis.

See more: https://github.com/quozd/awesome-dotnet?tab=readme-ov-file#d...

As for identity, you sound really silly when you consider it is literally built-in to ASP .NET itself, and can be expanded upon to your hearts desire, plus there's no shortage of available identity management libraries in C#.

As for source code repository, I'm not sure what you mean, but for years Microsoft hosted CodePlex which was essentially GitHub for C# projects. Visual Studio and C# projects are typically hosted on Git, I would be shocked if there's no web UI for git in C#, there's definitely plenty of applications for git in .NET

I'm not even going to comment on business intelligence, now you're just being very lazy. You're telling me Microsoft has 0 BI tooling and SDKs? Come on.

As for a linter, you are either trolling, or just blindly hate Microsoft for no rhyme or reason, there's more than enough linters, especially the best one of all, ReSharper, which is integrated into Rider which is a cross-platform IDE. There's also MonoDevelop, SharpDevelop, etc

I literally spent a few weeks ago porting a .NET 3.5 app I hadn't touched in years, to .NET 8 from Ubuntu Linux, and got it running, in under 30 minutes in Project Rider.

Also nearly forgot. Netflix's original web UI was Silverlight, which is C# / .NET back when it was at its peak for its time.

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#179

Post by facturi »

That proposal doesn't mention how the union struct handles tearing under concurrent modification.

Tearing can cause memory safety issue. Variant A can have an integer field and variant B can have a reference field in the same offset. Tearing can cause it to treat an integer as reference.

Re: Official proposal for Type Unions in C#

#180

Post by agent281 »

pjmlp wrote: post #89
agent281 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I definitely recommend giving F# a try. I think it's an extremely underrated language. Do you have any recommendations for people who do not have C#/.NET experience who want to rip their toes in F#? The last time I tried the language I bumped my head on the .NET parts. :/

It is a dream learning guest languages, while trying to avoid the platform, one really needs to understand UNIX, Web, .NET, Java, Erlang... for using whatever alternative leaky abstractions are provided on top of them. In F#'s case, there are plenty of good books, and then it is really needed to learn the platform. Some well known ones => Stylish F#, F# in Action, Domain Modeling Made Functional

It's not so much that I don't want to learn the platform. It's that there is often an inherent sequencing. The expectation is you already know the platform and now you are learning the guest language. I just want to be taught the guest language and the platform at the same time.
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