The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable • Hacker News Board

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#191

Post by falling » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 6:50 PM UTC

swah wrote: post #129

georgespencer wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Upgradability was a defect of technology not being good enough for long periods The other thing to consider is that the same applies to repairing technology. Why are we putting resource into catering for the tiny minority of a given product which experience mechanical failures which we can fix? 90% of BlackBerry users will never change the battery on their device. 100% of BlackBerries have a stupid door on the back…

> The economics of replacing an entire device are finally starting to make sense How do they come off as sustainable and cool when their are responsible for all this trash production?

> How do they come off as sustainable and cool when their are responsible for all this trash production?

How do they come off as sustainable and cool when Greenpeace was protesting in front of Infinite Loop a month ago?

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#192

Post by ken » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

taligent wrote: post #15

jonrob wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was just a case that hardware capacity has reached a point where most of us really don't need to upgrade our computers any more, that would be one thing. But the article also says that many of Apple's decisions are making their laptops less recyclable - even if the actual materials they're being made from are more so. This is a serious issue that people should care about. People should also care about not being…

What are you talking about ? The battery IS replaceable just not by you. And I hardly think saving an hour at an Apple Store once every 3 years is worth having a substantially thicker device.

You'll probably get one use of that, then. I doubt they'll still have 2012 Macbook Pro batteries sitting around in 2018, much less a person who knows how to install them.

I took my 2006 Macbook in to an Apple retail store to get a new battery, and they don't stock them any more. They said they could special order one, but actually suggested I try Amazon.

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#193

Post by binarycrusader » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #32

marknutter wrote: post #11

For years Apple has wanted to get closer and closer to the "appliance" model for their products. They are targeting consumers who's gut instinct when it comes to fixing their computers is to call a "geek". These consumers just want the damn things to work and would rather not worry about upgrading it over time. This is of course very unattractive to the hacker crowd, but they make up a much smaller percentage of the…

No, they are targeting consumers who call their "bank". The service life of modern computers is more than 3 years. So instead of buying a 16GB memory upgrade for $29 in 2015 to rejuvenate your laptop, you're looking at buying another $2,000 device. (Assuming that Apple doesn't decide that you only need an iPad 8)

Considering that the cost of electronics has generally gone down over time, there's no guarantee that you'll spend that much to replace it then.

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#194

Post by 5teev » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 6:52 PM UTC

nkohari wrote: post #115

nkassis wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's always has been cheaper to buy the ram separately from Apple who seriously overcharges for it. I guess they just closed that "loophole" in their scheme. I'm concerned about the battery. Those things don't last as long as they are claimed. I have a new one in my late 2008 MacBook pro right now.

They also reduced to the price of 16GB of RAM from $800 to $200.

Apple has in the past charged outrageous prices for RAM upgrades, but lately has come more in line with aftermarket prices if you factor in what you might consider an installation or "convenience" fee.

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#195

Post by jaems33 » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 6:54 PM UTC

MartinCron wrote: post #179

pasbesoin wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head (and so, perhaps wrong), I seem to recall the amount Apple is charging for going from 8 GB to 16 GB to be on the order of US$200. [1] For RAM that they are purchasing and installing in volume. That's a lot of net profit into their pocket, for each unit. And that's where I have one particular concern: Apple closing down and engorging itself on yet another market segment (upgrades). You can argue…

That's a lot of net profit into their pocket, for each unit. You should never price things based solely on how much the inputs cost. If people are willing to pay huge premiums for incremental RAM upgrades, Apple will gladly let them.

In this case though, there are few alternatives. Even if the RAM upgrade was $400, I'd still buy it because the RAM is soldered and so I wouldn't be able to upgrade it myself.

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#196

Post by niels_olson » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 6:56 PM UTC

stan_rogers wrote: post #173

gnaffle wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The glue is designed to come apart, especially when heated. I'd understand you if they used expoxy resin or something like that, but that's not the case. Also, Apple has an incentive to make them recyclable since they offer a free recycling programme. My biggest concern is the RAM, both because I've had RAM failures before which now becomes a motherboard swap, and because I'd rather max out the RAM later when it's ch…

Just an FYI here: heating epoxy (sufficiently) will overcure it and make it removable (it'll puff up like popcorn, and becomes very brittle and weak). I can't swear to the current state of the art, but using epoxy as a conformal coating to exclude environmental influences and thermally stabilize a populated circuit board was pretty standard military/aerospace practice in my day, and one could use standard soldering t…

Yeah, I really enjoyed being the electrical officer on a ship, deployed to nowhere, the frequency converter broke, we opened it, and the affected board was covered in charred goo.

CASREP 98032 SUBJ: REQUEST $30K BOARD TO REPLACE 30CENT CAPACITOR.

Yes, Captain, the cost of a day's fuel for a 30 cent capacitor. And we will spend $80,000 to air drop that board in a $5000 box from a $50M airplane into the ocean and recover it in a RHIB at non-zero risk to human life. For a 30 cent capacitor. Thank Raytheon.

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#197

Post by Aykroyd » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 7:07 PM UTC

These sort of arguments bug me. I won't repeat the great criticisms that have already been made. One of the types of things that he says that get me are completely unsupportable statements like: " Apple products have historically retained their value quite well, in part due to third-party repair manuals, but also due to a number of very modular, very upgradeable designs."

Not only would he probably be unable to find any evidence for that as being a reason but it doesn't pass the common sense test. PCs are very upgradeable as well... I'd argue more so... so clearly that's not the reason that macs have better resale value.

In the end, he sounds like an old mechanic complaining that fuel injection is worse than carburetors because they're less tunable. The car industry has already gone this direction making it harder and harder for amateurs to tinker and fix their vehicles and yet cars today are safer, faster, and more reliable than cars 20 years ago.

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#198

Post by pfranz » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 7:12 PM UTC

niels_olson wrote: post #190

lmm wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, come off it. Have you really had a 5-year-old open your electronics? If they find a screwdriver they can stick it through the screen just as easily whichever screws Apple uses, and that seems like a more likely damage path.

yes, and yes, here's a picture of my XO-1 that went viral http://gizmodo.com/373124/kids-are-tearing-apart-the-olpc-la...

The ease of disassembling OLPCs is intentional http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/03/5-year-olds-repair-olpc-l...

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#199

Post by pgeorgi » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 7:12 PM UTC

jsz0 wrote: post #164

generalk wrote: post #57

I'm on the fence. On the one hand, the new MBP is a fantastic machine and if I pay the premium for the 16GB of RAM, I'm probably going to be set for years. That said, I'm currently running the original Late 2008 Unibody Macbook Pro. It's survived for four years because I've been able to, over time, upgrade the RAM, replace the spinning disk with an SSD, and replace the aging battery. SSDs weren't available when I pur…

Upgrade-by-replacement. In 2 years you'll still be able to sell this machine for about 70% of its original price. From there you can buy the latest & greatest model at basically a 70% discount. Factor in the price of the parts you would have upgraded and I bet it's a wash or pretty close to it.

I wonder if the "70% rule" still applies in 2 years, given that the buyer can't replace the battery anymore (or ask the local geek to do it for them).

In my experience (small computer store, doing such stuff on commission among other things), buying a second hand Mac and some add-ons (battery, disk, RAM) often went hand in hand...

Re: The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable

#200

Post by ScottBurson » Fri, Jun 15, 2012, 7:16 PM UTC

archgrove wrote: post #7

The argument doesn't really hold up, as we're only given two choices: Upgradable, or amazing screen. If there was a third, "Upgradable and amazing screen" with the applicable price/weight tradeoffs, then the "we can choose" view would be more tenable. Regardless, the lack of upgradability isn't something that bugs me. My last two Apple laptops were "upgradable", but all I ever did was throw some RAM in there. The sub…

the death of the 17" Macbook LapCrusher(tm)

Huh. I love my 17" MBP. In fact I bought my third one a year ago... and now I'm particularly glad I did. I'll have to see how many years I can get out of this one... 7 or 8, maybe.