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The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

businessinsider.com

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Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#61

Post by watwut »

Majestic121 wrote: post #11
watwut wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cant learn foreign language from a book. Or, very very few people ever succeeded to learn basics of reading and write in foreign language from a book. And you can not possibly learn listening and talking.

You can't learn a foreign language from Duolingo alone either, so the original sentence stands.

Original sentence is still nonsense. No, if duolingo stopped with those messages, people would still not picked book as replacement.

And book as your only resource have massive drop put rates. People generally give up very soon.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#62

Post by watwut »

djeastm wrote: post #26

I'm a former military linguist who was trained to learn Arabic. I've always disliked and distrusted Duolingo (and before that, Rosetta Stone), for providing people the basics (which they do just fine) but making it seem like fluency is always just one more upgrade or lesson around the corner while not-so-subtly implying that it's your fault that you're not there yet. Even for the most talented learners of languages i…

Duolingo own marketing does not claim they teach up to fluency. I never seen anyone claim that duolingo can, should or did teach up to fluency.

I have seen people claim that duolingo made them able to consume simple content or have basic conversation (usually they claim it about Spanish which is the longest course).

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#63

Post by watwut »

cornedor wrote: post #50

The icon only changes on April fools as a joke or something like that. And it changes for everybody. At least on iPhone, I don't think you can change the app icon without notifying the user.

There is widget with owl that gets sadder and sadder as the day progresses if you did not done duolingo.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#64

Post by Sakos »

watwut wrote: post #61
Majestic121 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't learn a foreign language from Duolingo alone either, so the original sentence stands.

Original sentence is still nonsense. No, if duolingo stopped with those messages, people would still not picked book as replacement. And book as your only resource have massive drop put rates. People generally give up very soon.

It feels to me like we're in agreement, so I'm not certain why you're saying my original sentence is nonsense.

> people would still not picked book as replacement

Yes, exactly.

> And book as your only resource have massive drop put rates. People generally give up very soon.

Yes, entirely correct.

That's what something like Duolingo promises to solve and these obstacles (independent of Duolingo) are why people won't pick up a book or do other forms of self-learning instead. They want a service like Duolingo, because it promises to make learning more approachable and accessible and provides mental tricks to keep you engaged regularly and long-term.

Which brings me around to my original argument: The article is framing it in this weirdly malicious way as if it isn't exactly what people wanted from a service like Duolingo. It's like turning a water boiler on and then getting upset that the water is hot. I thought that was the point?

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#65

Post by watwut »

anonfornoreason wrote: post #36
ryukoposting wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Duolingo for the exact reasons you don't. I want to learn a language, and I will need to know the basics to be able to talk to people on my honeymoon next year. What you see as "nagging" I see as "holding me accountable to a goal I've set for myself." I can definitely see why you'd want to be able to dial back the notifications, though. On principle, I'd usually be on your side in this kind of situation. But a…

If it’s important, why cede control of your own discipline to a notification loop of a for-profit company? A technique I like to use is to wake up an hour early everyday and do some studying before anyone else is awake. Making dedicated time for something is like making a commitment to myself. Strengthens my ability to do it each time, feels more like I am in control. Awesome to be learning something new either way t…

Because language learning generally sux, is horribly boring and I don't get enough of sleep enough anyway.

So, if there is an app that makes me want to open it, enjoy the process, then it is pure gain. Sometimes I get double motivated and do extras (content consumption, reading grammar), other times I just keep the streak.

But if I had to wake up every day an hour sooner to study language, then I would be forgetting everything in two weeks, because that would genuinely lowered my quality of life.

And yes, I am ok with idea that you will learn faster then I will.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#66

Post by watwut »

Sakos wrote: post #64
watwut wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Original sentence is still nonsense. No, if duolingo stopped with those messages, people would still not picked book as replacement. And book as your only resource have massive drop put rates. People generally give up very soon.

It feels to me like we're in agreement, so I'm not certain why you're saying my original sentence is nonsense. > people would still not picked book as replacement Yes, exactly. > And book as your only resource have massive drop put rates. People generally give up very soon. Yes, entirely correct. That's what something like Duolingo promises to solve and these obstacles (independent of Duolingo) are why people won't p…

In that case I misunderstood your original sentence. I knee jerked, projecting something that was not present in your writing into it. So I apologize.

For whatever it is worth, I know you did not wrote it, the "pick a textbook for language learning" meme is sort of my pet peeve. I kinda suspect that people saying it never learned foreign language.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#67

Post by oglop »

watwut wrote: post #62
djeastm wrote: post #26

I'm a former military linguist who was trained to learn Arabic. I've always disliked and distrusted Duolingo (and before that, Rosetta Stone), for providing people the basics (which they do just fine) but making it seem like fluency is always just one more upgrade or lesson around the corner while not-so-subtly implying that it's your fault that you're not there yet. Even for the most talented learners of languages i…

Duolingo own marketing does not claim they teach up to fluency. I never seen anyone claim that duolingo can, should or did teach up to fluency. I have seen people claim that duolingo made them able to consume simple content or have basic conversation (usually they claim it about Spanish which is the longest course).

[flagged]

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#68

Post by watwut »

oglop wrote: post #67
watwut wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duolingo own marketing does not claim they teach up to fluency. I never seen anyone claim that duolingo can, should or did teach up to fluency. I have seen people claim that duolingo made them able to consume simple content or have basic conversation (usually they claim it about Spanish which is the longest course).

[flagged]

That is literally what every physical language school or textbook for beginners have in the materials ... and literally none of them teaches up to fluency.

Maybe because I had experience with language learning, but it would not occur to me that "learn language" in a headline should imply that.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#69

Post by Sakos »

watwut wrote: post #66
Sakos wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels to me like we're in agreement, so I'm not certain why you're saying my original sentence is nonsense. > people would still not picked book as replacement Yes, exactly. > And book as your only resource have massive drop put rates. People generally give up very soon. Yes, entirely correct. That's what something like Duolingo promises to solve and these obstacles (independent of Duolingo) are why people won't p…

In that case I misunderstood your original sentence. I knee jerked, projecting something that was not present in your writing into it. So I apologize. For whatever it is worth, I know you did not wrote it, the "pick a textbook for language learning" meme is sort of my pet peeve. I kinda suspect that people saying it never learned foreign language.

That's okay, I'm glad we could clear it up. I won't pretend that I have any idea how one would best learn a language and I don't know if Duolingo is effective at all. I just understand why people want services like it.

Re: The meanest app: Duolingo subjects its users to "emotional blackmail"

#70

Post by Arch485 »

oglop wrote: post #67
watwut wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Duolingo own marketing does not claim they teach up to fluency. I never seen anyone claim that duolingo can, should or did teach up to fluency. I have seen people claim that duolingo made them able to consume simple content or have basic conversation (usually they claim it about Spanish which is the longest course).

[flagged]

"too autistic"? What does that even mean?

And for the record, "learn Spanish" also doesn't imply fluency to me... I feel like anyone would be able figure out it takes more than an app to make you fluent in another language.

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