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Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

belenios.org

261–270 of 307 posts

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#261
post #119

One important thing about any voting system – digital or not – is that it has to be good at producing agreeable consent . That means bitter, betrayed and hurt (but reasonable/democratic!) losing parties need to be able to say: yeah we accept the result because we are confident in the outcome of the election. This is something all digital systems are really bad at, even if everything is readable and verifiable, unless…

Disagree. It's enough for the average voter to trust that some other people - independent experts - are able to verify the vote. Not everyone needs to be an expert at anything. I wrote more about this trust aspect in the appendix of my thesis on voting: https://attejuvonen.fi/thesis

> Disagree. It's enough for the average voter to trust that some other people - independent experts - are able to verify the vote.

It's interesting how attitudes about digital voting seemed to flip overnight once Trump challenged the 2020 election. Beforehand there as a lot of serious concern about the trustworthiness and security of digital voting machines, now I get the impression that's all been muted and its taboo to do anything except trust the authorities.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#262
post #119

One important thing about any voting system – digital or not – is that it has to be good at producing agreeable consent . That means bitter, betrayed and hurt (but reasonable/democratic!) losing parties need to be able to say: yeah we accept the result because we are confident in the outcome of the election. This is something all digital systems are really bad at, even if everything is readable and verifiable, unless…

Right: most systems with paper ballots are simple enough that the vast majority of the electorate, including those with lower-than-average IQ's (50% of the population), can understand and could participate in if they were inclined.

I have yet to see a digital system that I would trust myself to validate, much less the non-technical majority of the public.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#263
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think this is even more pronounced if the criminals can keep af gun to your head in your own home when voting? That said - I am yet to see any protocol that is resilient against not showing up IRL (due to the exact reason above).

Criminals showing up to your house, putting a gun to your head, and demanding your vote is a fantasy. You don’t need to defend against it because it’s a totally unscalable way to steal an election.

In most cases coercion probably won't be as obvious as someone literally pointing a gun to your head (though there certainly could be a literal or metaphorical gun to the head in some cases). Typically it'll probably be something more subtle like: "Hi, I'm going door to door to turn out the vote. Have you voted yet? No? Here, let me help you fill out your ballot. I'll even turn it in for you."

Coercion doesn't need to be overt to be effective, just a small amount of social pressure applied over a large number of people is enough to make a significant difference. That's why typically there are laws banning campaigning right outside polling places. Now what if the "polling place" is the entire country, over a period of multiple weeks? How are you going to enforce that? And how can the electorate trust that it is being effectively enforced?

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not enough. It's not enough at all. Experts are easily compromised. The system by which power is transferred from the people to representatives needs to be literally self-evident. Any system that the "average voter" cannot understand should be literally unconstitutional. Deviating from this puts the results of all elections in doubt. People will question the results, and they will have a point because the system…

Okay, so you will only accept some theoretical, idealistic, perfect voting system, which at this time does not exist. And until one is invented, you want all non-perfect voting systems to be "literally unconstitutional". How do you want government to function until a perfect voting system is invented? Should we just have dictatorship until that time?

Decentralized paper ballot systems are counted locally, by people who live in your communities, and are plainly readable.

This makes widespread, centralized election tampering much more difficult, in ways even a moron can usually grasp. (Edit: I mean the general public, not any reader here)

Election skepticism is only going to get worse with China and Russia ramping up their neverending quest to discredit democracy. An unfortunate reality is that we need to operate our elections in ways that are unquestionably understandable and plainly resistant to tampering.

Another example is voting systems. There are several voting systems that are objectively better than Instant Runoff Voting, but they require algebra to determine the winner. If the system isn't demonstrable in a short video or infographic, it is too complex for general population elections.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#265
post #243
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? Yeah, all . I teach electronics at the University level and I know: 1. How hard it is for already highly educated people to understand electronics and programming 2. What kind of complexity is needed on how many technological layers to just even have it work reliably and how much more complexity is needed to have it formally variable and tamper-proof 3. How many attack vectors exist in such systems — many of whi…

That didn’t answer my question. What systems have you looked at? Saying “all systems” is such a sweeping statement, it is very unlikely to be true. Technology always improves and if you looked at any modern system, people some day in the past would be incredulous that it could possibly replace a bunch of smart humans with pen and paper. Experts said airplanes couldn’t ever fly and the wright brothers were fools. Then…

You're missing their point.

It's not that it cannot be done. It's that even if you do it perfectly (whatever that means), you cannot expect people to trust it.

People trust papers in envelopes in transparent boxes in classrooms all around the country because it's intrinsically trustable, decentralised, easy to understand, extremely hard to manipulate at a global scale, etc.

People do not trust an electronic system. You can explain to them that it's safe until you're red in the face, it's not the point.

Democracy works if people have sufficient trust in it.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#266
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's wrong. Democracy is a process involving the entire population of a country. A vote must be a process carried out by individual citizens to be trustworthy; if we delegate that to machines maintained by the government—because nobody else would be able to do so both trustable and professional—we'd create an incentive for the government to manipulate the system to stay in power. If, in turn, elections are orga…

> an incentive for the government to manipulate the system to stay in power. Plenty of incentives and options even with paper ballots, as many dictators have shown. > distributed, local, and highly public countings Why wouldn’t this be possible with machines? > We cannot hand control over the vote to the government If you trust the people checking the machines have not been manipulated, this is not at all what would…

> Plenty of incentives and options even with paper ballots, as many dictators have shown.

Is that so? If anything, they ignore the ballots or fake the numbers—see Venezuela. That is another problem entirely.

> Why wouldn’t this be possible with machines?

With paper ballot countings, even the most plain citizen, can witness the counting and ensure themselves nothing shady is going on: Watching as people create heaps from ballots with a checkmark in the same box, then call out the numbers is not beatable in terms of accessibility.

With machines, complexity is orders of magnitude higher: Watching the computer is pointless. You don't get to see how it adds up votes, you have to trust its software is working as advertised. There is just no way to verify no component of the stack has been manipulated.

> If you trust the people checking the machines have not been manipulated, this is not at all what would be happening.

But that is the point! Why would you ever do that? What power does that grant to these people? How dangerous would it be to be such a person? Who even would these non-government election experts be? Why limit the number of people able to verify an election is going on truthfully to a small amount of technically literate experts, when we have a perfectly working democratic system in place?

Tell me this; how can you check the machines have not been manipulated with a 100 percent certainty? How do you verify the screen displays what it is supposed to, the software has no backdoors, the hardware has no backdoors, there are no parts swapped out, there are no second-order effects of transistors flipping bits if the ambient temperature reaches a certain point, the cables have not been messed with, the data it sends is not intercepted or altered, the packages won't be dropped, or arrive in duplicates, or any of the other myriad of possible failure conditions? An election is an extremely rewarding target for both internal and foreign/rival state actors. Just think of Stuxnet if you think this is paranoid, and that was 2010! How would you ensure that even the most sophisticated attackers won’t come up with an exploit?

You cannot. You cannot do this reliably for every machine involved in the election; the combined knowledge and experience involved in each of these questions far exceeds even most IT professionals. So you immediately remove the ability to witness the election from almost every citizen, by making the process infinitely more complex and harder to understand, for no reason at all. I know there are lots of interesting problems to solve here, but democracy is not the right place for complex solutions to interesting problems.

There is virtually no compelling reason to drop a working process in favour of machines here.

Edit: and one more thing with elections is that you cannot just try again if something seems suspicious. You’ve completely shattered trust at that point, and the victor would rightfully claim the election had been stolen from them. Again: Democracy is no place for technological solutions.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criticisms in the videos do not appropriately counter the solution in the linked article. Scott's superficial discussion of blockchain at the end misses the entire ethos of blockchain. We agree that servers, devices, software and networks cannot be trusted, and possibly never will be. So we ignore them and instead rely solely on the output. Every stakeholder audits the final official "blockchain" (for lack of a b…

Blockchains are only verifiable and reliable in so far as everything that exists exits in the blockchain. As soon as it interfaces with the real world you start hitting the Oracle problem [1]. That you are not aware of this and still push for even considering it as an alternative to paper ballots is part of the problem. We need constitutional amendments that ban all forms of electronic voting in every democracy. [1]:…

The main issue is that centralized electronic systems can be hacked at scale. That's what the paper solves, it slows everything down making it difficult compromise results en-masse. Verification is much simpler and cheaper than voting itself, and can be distributed. A distrusting community, for example, can build their own easily auditable tools, running on their own random machines, to verify the integrity of their community's votes. Thousands of communities around the country can do the same - again each using completely independent hardware, software and networks, all of which would have to be hacked. You may also be overlooking that we have the benefit of a reliable root of trust in the form of manually provided government documents and IDs that are carefully provisioned. You think in 10,000 years it will still be impossible to run a vote electronically?

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#268
post #119

One important thing about any voting system – digital or not – is that it has to be good at producing agreeable consent . That means bitter, betrayed and hurt (but reasonable/democratic!) losing parties need to be able to say: yeah we accept the result because we are confident in the outcome of the election. This is something all digital systems are really bad at, even if everything is readable and verifiable, unless…

Agreed. One of the most common objections against democracy is that popular vote does not select for competence and therefore our politicians are not acting in the best interests of the population.

That isn't actually what voting is meant to do. The purpose of democracy is to kick out the old guy and stop the concentration of power by rotating the people in power frequently. The problem is that when you get rid of the old guy, you also need people to agree and consent that the new guy is indeed the new guy.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absentee voting process is still audited at every step. They even have observer areas in the ballot printing facilities now. How would a party ever subvert the process that exists to stuff ballots at any scale?

Control and visibility of absentee ballots (in my state, all of them) is completely missing between mailing and drop-off. That is how.

Sure, but how much can/should the state do about people in the same household hypothetically stealing each other's ballots? The registration process requires ID, so I'm not convinced additional authentication is needed.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Control and visibility of absentee ballots (in my state, all of them) is completely missing between mailing and drop-off. That is how.

Sure, but how much can/should the state do about people in the same household hypothetically stealing each other's ballots? The registration process requires ID, so I'm not convinced additional authentication is needed.

Don't limit your imagination to households, although that's also a problem. What about apartments that receive all their ballots at the same time, or congregate living shelters, etc. etc.? It's not that hard to conceive of collecting tens or even hundreds of ballots if you have the right access to mail.

The state should eliminate this problem by requiring everyone to vote in person on election day with voter ID using a secret ballot.

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