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Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

viewfromthewing.com

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Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#241

Post by nottorp »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #234
nottorp wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IPv6 is seen and used directly by professionals, not the general public Yes, that's the problem. It's unusable on your fucking home network. Please, don't post again the 10 "concise" 50+ page documents that you "just" need to read to set up ipv6...

I don't really understand. My router gives me an IPv6 address...

Do you understand on what basis? Do you know enough to assign addresses in a way that you, not your router, wants?

Can you ssh/other forms of remote into any machine that accepts ssh on your local network using only ipv6?

Can you redirect ports to specific local machines using only ipv6 (that implies they keep constant addresses)?

Can you easily switch between two internet connections going through different routers that are plugged into the same switch for any machine on your local network using only ipv6?

Speaking of which, since the ISP decides on the addresses behind your NAT, can two separate ipv6 internet connections even exist on a local network?

This is all easily doable with ipv4 in like two afternoons without setting up anything beyond perhaps a dhcp server and some firewall rules. How many additional services do you need to do that with ipv6? And how enterprisey are they?

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#242

Post by zaphoyd »

eknkc wrote: post #235
jll29 wrote: post #227

> Here’s the full answer, along with how they triage the problem – for instance by assigning the same flight number to more than one flight a day (although that means they need for it to be flights that would never both be in the air at the same time, such as where the same plane is used and can’t reasonably be substituted) This sounds like it's calling for trouble! Whenever I hear that any IDs could be "recycled", I…

Hey they are inventing NAT. Nice.

NAT for airline flight numbers would fix this problem and improve security to boot!

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#243

Post by tyingq »

jll29 wrote: post #227

> Here’s the full answer, along with how they triage the problem – for instance by assigning the same flight number to more than one flight a day (although that means they need for it to be flights that would never both be in the air at the same time, such as where the same plane is used and can’t reasonably be substituted) This sounds like it's calling for trouble! Whenever I hear that any IDs could be "recycled", I…

>Whenever I hear that any IDs could be "recycled", I make a mental note to replace the person making such a proposal from all teams that I am involved in.

I understand the sentiment, but in this case, someone is trying to solve for constraints they didn't invent.

Flight number was fixed to 4 digits long ago and propagates out to a lot of different systems, many not in the same company as the airline, also many being government entities.

So they don't have a lot of great choices.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#244

Post by eep_social »

Havoc wrote: post #11

The entire aviation industry feels like it is in need of a tech stack 100% rebuild. Systems like Sabre are 60+ years old.

Been done. You need to put in $100 million to be considered serious and get across the table from someone at a carrier. Also helpful to have deep relationships with carriers based on software for other parts of their business.

And then there’s always that risk that some idiotic exec will cancel the project to chase a half billion dollar market instead. I can’t recall where the system needed up being sold to but I’m sure it died an ugly death thereafter. Writing the core in lisp was a risky move.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#245

Post by wtcactus »

I get constantly baffled at the amount of technical debt that goes on in civil aviation.

The fact that no one just overhauls the system with backward compatibility and sets a deadline for the migration, is just insane for me. All these specific problems are solved, and in production (in freight for instance) for more than 2 decades now. But aviation just goes on with their 70s system.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#246

Post by eek2121 »

zeagle wrote: post #80

Clearly the successor solution is to use eight groups of four hexadecimal digits each, separated by colons. Then each individual seat and peanut could be addressed to it's final destination. More seriously the solution suggested of giving the 3 companies other unused prefixes like D* U* and A* to use with their codeshares and non rev flights to start seems the easiest.

IPv6 was the worst idea ever and no one can prove me wrong.

The folks that invented it must’ve never had to deal with a mission critical task during a DNS outage, for example.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#247

Post by cobbzilla »

jll29 wrote: post #227

> Here’s the full answer, along with how they triage the problem – for instance by assigning the same flight number to more than one flight a day (although that means they need for it to be flights that would never both be in the air at the same time, such as where the same plane is used and can’t reasonably be substituted) This sounds like it's calling for trouble! Whenever I hear that any IDs could be "recycled", I…

Have you ever changed the static IP address of a computer? You just “recycled” a “globally unique” ID.

Recycling unique IDs (more precisely: changing the underlying thing the ID points to) is not impossible; there’s lots of pathological failure modes; for certain ID-spaces it’s kinda a required use case; so we have to deal with it.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#248

Post by kzrdude »

jll29 wrote: post #227

> Here’s the full answer, along with how they triage the problem – for instance by assigning the same flight number to more than one flight a day (although that means they need for it to be flights that would never both be in the air at the same time, such as where the same plane is used and can’t reasonably be substituted) This sounds like it's calling for trouble! Whenever I hear that any IDs could be "recycled", I…

The neat thing is that the replaced person frees up their ID which can be reused by the new employee coming in, just easier that way.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#249

Post by mbreese »

ginko wrote: post #171
zeagle wrote: post #80

Clearly the successor solution is to use eight groups of four hexadecimal digits each, separated by colons. Then each individual seat and peanut could be addressed to it's final destination. More seriously the solution suggested of giving the 3 companies other unused prefixes like D* U* and A* to use with their codeshares and non rev flights to start seems the easiest.

Why do airlines even need separate flight numbers for codeshare flights? Why not just use the flight number of the operating airline in the booking? IMO it's just confusing for passengers as well.

I think the answer is due to money and pride. My guess is that the issue is billing and international relations. Code shares aren’t (often) between airlines that are from the same country. So, if you have a requirement to fly a particular flag carrier, you have greater flexibility. For example if the ticket is funded by the US gov’t, you can still take an Air France flight, but get billed by Delta. Or, for frequent fliers (whom airlines love to target with rewards), you can have miles accumulate with United even if you are taking an Air Canada flight.

But I would think that this change could be made on the backend much easier than trying to add another number to the flight IDs.

Re: Airlines are running out of 4-digit flight numbers

#250

Post by flicken »

ksec wrote: post #238
layer8 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Answered in this comment by “hagbard celine” under the article: https://viewfromthewing.com/airlines-are-running-out-of-flig...

But then at the bottom of the article it said >They also still have fun with flight numbers for instance running flight 1776 between Philadelphia and Boston; flight 1492 to Columbus; AAA777 to Las Vegas; AAA777. Am I missing something?

The "AAA" is a typo, they probably mean "AA777" for American Airlines 777[1].

A far as why the number 777 is amusing, it's gambling. The combination 777 is a jackpot on a slot machine, Additionally AA777 is a great hand (full house) in poker.

[1] https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/AAL777

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