OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught • Hacker News Board

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#41

Post by j-bos » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 10:57 AM UTC

tgv wrote: post #12

j-bos wrote: post #7

On a personal level, I'm happy about this. Having all personal info trackable is a tiring aspect of modern life? Remember when social media didn't zero out the exif on photos and anyone could easily grab a map to your family's home? On a society level? I'm stil ok with this. Watermarks are trivially removed by the motivated and unpleasant.

It doesn't seem trackable. And it may not be perfect, but that's no reason to discard it. At the moment, it's being used at a large scale to avoid homework by lazy students, which is nearly everyone. How much further do you want tech to erode education?

My concern isn't the details of tracking, only the fact of it. As for eroding education, I believe 98% of homework is useless for learning. A kid that cheats with gpt is a kid that would cheat off of friends. The tech, in it's cheating and anti cheating, does not degrade or improve the antisocial effects on education.

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#42

Post by preciz » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 10:57 AM UTC

pona-a wrote: post #13

What we're seeing is a new profitable industry, with a tendency towards natural monopoly, refusing to act in the public good because its incentives conflict with it. At stake is the entire corpus of 21st century media, at risk of being drowned out in a tsunami of statistically unidentifiable spam, which has already begun and will only get worse, until nobody will even acknowledge the web post 2022 as worth reading or…

You are DEEPLY WRONG on all issues you mentioned.

Open weight models do not require great investment. In fact I can run them on my 400 EUR computer.

Also why you want to regulate text output from machines in the name of "public good"? That's insanity.

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#43

Post by miga » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 10:57 AM UTC

...until they are legally required, just like producers of printers are.

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#44

Post by j-bos » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 10:58 AM UTC

romanovcode wrote: post #30

j-bos wrote: post #7

On a personal level, I'm happy about this. Having all personal info trackable is a tiring aspect of modern life? Remember when social media didn't zero out the exif on photos and anyone could easily grab a map to your family's home? On a society level? I'm stil ok with this. Watermarks are trivially removed by the motivated and unpleasant.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. Do you really believe that internally OpenAI does not track and save important info based on your inputs creating a "persona"? This is any intelligence agencies wet dream. The functionality that was introduced that would save info about you as a person to "improve" responses cross-chats basically made a whole profile out of you as a person. Oh, and what a surprise - OpenAI direc…

No I believe and understand that. Doesn't mean I want more.

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#45

Post by lofaszvanitt » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 10:59 AM UTC

Bird of paradise courtship spectacle (dance) for the masses.

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#46

Post by exe34 » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 10:59 AM UTC

xienze wrote: post #33

pona-a wrote: post #13

What we're seeing is a new profitable industry, with a tendency towards natural monopoly, refusing to act in the public good because its incentives conflict with it. At stake is the entire corpus of 21st century media, at risk of being drowned out in a tsunami of statistically unidentifiable spam, which has already begun and will only get worse, until nobody will even acknowledge the web post 2022 as worth reading or…

> Force all companies training LLMs to add some method of watermarking with a mean error rate below a set value. How do you watermark plain text?

"I seem to do fine for a stretch, but at the of the sentence I say the wrong cranberry."

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#47

Post by j-bos » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 10:59 AM UTC

voidUpdate wrote: post #23

j-bos wrote: post #7

On a personal level, I'm happy about this. Having all personal info trackable is a tiring aspect of modern life? Remember when social media didn't zero out the exif on photos and anyone could easily grab a map to your family's home? On a society level? I'm stil ok with this. Watermarks are trivially removed by the motivated and unpleasant.

Its hard to remove this watermark, because the "watermark" is adjusting the probabilities of what tokens are generated, rather than just slapping "generated by chatgpt" over the top. You'd have to actually rewrite the text to remove it

It was once hard to remove watermarks from photos.

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#48

Post by lewhoo » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 11:02 AM UTC

preciz wrote: post #42

pona-a wrote: post #13

What we're seeing is a new profitable industry, with a tendency towards natural monopoly, refusing to act in the public good because its incentives conflict with it. At stake is the entire corpus of 21st century media, at risk of being drowned out in a tsunami of statistically unidentifiable spam, which has already begun and will only get worse, until nobody will even acknowledge the web post 2022 as worth reading or…

You are DEEPLY WRONG on all issues you mentioned. Open weight models do not require great investment. In fact I can run them on my 400 EUR computer. Also why you want to regulate text output from machines in the name of "public good"? That's insanity.

Why exactly is it insane ? To reliably differentiate (let's assume it's possible for the sake of argument) between "you made this" and "you didn't make this" or at least "a human made this" seems to carry mostly (if not only) benefits.

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#49

Post by probably_wrong » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 11:03 AM UTC

matusp wrote: post #9

wongarsu wrote: post #5

Remember when GPT was "too dangerous" to release into the world and unless you were twitter-famous you had to apply and wait for months to even get access? Times sure have changed

I remember when GPT-2 was "too dangerous" to release. I am confused why people still take these clown claims seriously.

I've come to think that they were more or less correct. GPT-2 is the grandfather of the AI-generated garbage under which we are currently drowning.

Of course there's an argument to be made that this was inevitable, but that doesn't mean that the early OpenAI crew were necessarily wrong when they said "this model may make things significantly worse".

Re: OpenAI won't watermark ChatGPT text because its users could get caught

#50

Post by fragmede » Mon, Aug 05, 2024, 11:05 AM UTC

lewhoo wrote: post #48

preciz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are DEEPLY WRONG on all issues you mentioned. Open weight models do not require great investment. In fact I can run them on my 400 EUR computer. Also why you want to regulate text output from machines in the name of "public good"? That's insanity.

Why exactly is it insane ? To reliably differentiate (let's assume it's possible for the sake of argument) between "you made this" and "you didn't make this" or at least "a human made this" seems to carry mostly (if not only) benefits.

the problem is your parenthetical - it's not possible, so attempting to do so isn't actually really possible. what's worse than a watermark? one that doesn't actually work.