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Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

belenios.org

121–130 of 307 posts

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#121
Involving computers in vote tallying is an invitation to fraud.

In the US right now, our problems are well understood and primarily relate to ensuring that only legally eligible people vote, and that the vote was cast by that actual person.

These are fundamentally not technical problems. We have known about them for decades if not centuries and as recently as the early 2000s the Carter-Baker commission laid out the problems and the relatively straightforward solutions.

There have always been political “machines” in big cities, and if given the opportunity, they will try to stuff ballot boxes, intimidate voters, harvest ballots, exclude observers, apply voting laws unequally, and do any number of other shenanigans to give their party an advantage.

This has reached epic proportions since mail-in ballots for able bodied voters was normalized during COVID.

And the problems have all been exacerbated by the unwillingness of the courts to force states to abide by their own voting laws.

Election administration is not difficult, it is a straightforward set of tasks that require diligence and integrity, and that benefits greatly from having highly motivated partisan observers at every stage of the process.

Technology currently used in voting mostly just introduces more ways to mess up elections either intentionally (via manipulation, by administrators or hackers) or accidentally (as via bugs).

The fixes as I said, are simple but inconvenient:

1. Diligently clean voter rolls every year, or even throw them out and restart every year

2. Strongly authenticate voters via in-person registration with trusted nonpartisan agents (government officials) and verify eligibility to vote (citizenship, residency, age, selective service)

3. Vote in person. If intimidation is known to be a problem in a precinct, bring in state police (not local). Note that machine precincts are likely determinable via statistical and electoral analysis, eg where can small swings have big electoral impact). You don’t have to fortify everywhere.

4. Check voter id at the polls.

5. Paper ballots, hand counted on the day of election.

6. Invalidate the count and require revote from any precinct that counts any vote not in the presence of partisan observers from any party on the ballot that asks. Do not allow any vote to be counted after results are reported; the remedy for custody mistakes and “finding uncounted votes” is re-vote.

7. Publicly post precinct level results BEFORE reporting to the county or state. Publicly post county results before reporting to the state. This allows independent channels to confirm that tallies at the county or state level are not tampered with or inadvertently miscomputed.

8. Fast track any election challenge hearings from any eligible voter in an election and do not allow judges to reject cases due to standing, mootness or laches.

9. Absentee ballots should be rare and require proof of need and extraordinary verification with partisan monitoring.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better measure against this is not physical presence, but allowing one individual to exercise their vote any number of times until the ballot period ends. This means that a malevolent entity that wants to influence votes needs to sequester the voter(s) for the whole ballot period, which is vastly more difficult than putting a gun to someone's head for a single vote. Executing this at scale so the effect can…

I actually love this. I always cast my vote on election day because I want to have the most information. What if I vote early, then the person I voted for has a major scandal the day before the polls close? Being able to change one's vote would remove all the disincentive to voting early or whenever it's most convenient for you.

If you're changing your vote based on which side was the latest to have a major "scandal", you're part of the problem.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#123
post #44

Personally I love the idea of a fully verifiable election. I do the the current election protocol my county uses is pretty good: you present id in one room, they check your eligibility, then you’re given an anonymous ticket, in another room you vote using said ticket, and get a receipt. You can see your but counted online using said receipt. There are two problems with this: 1. You can’t verify extra or in eligible v…

Why is the act of physically showing up so important? I think reducing friction can be a great way to get more people to vote.

For example, so that people aren’t forced by their spouses at home to vote a specific way.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, fair. I meant it in the sense of the younger generation has more exposure to concepts like encrypted communication and peer to peer communication and encrypted ledgers, etc. They might not know how exactly they work, but they know they exist and have an inkling of their attributes as they pertain to data secrecy, auditability, etc...

I'm far more familiar with cryptography concepts than the average person but I wouldn't trust myself to audit a crypto system or implementation.

You might trust yourself to read a bunch of blog posts on technical deep dives into the system and make up your mind based on that, though.

(Whether that's a good thing or not I don't know - perhaps you'd end up agreeing with whichever side has the most believable technological shibboleths, which isn't that much different from the current best practice of listening to the side with the better attack ads).

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better measure against this is not physical presence, but allowing one individual to exercise their vote any number of times until the ballot period ends. This means that a malevolent entity that wants to influence votes needs to sequester the voter(s) for the whole ballot period, which is vastly more difficult than putting a gun to someone's head for a single vote. Executing this at scale so the effect can…

This is a interesting idea. I reckon the individual voting period would have to be randomized to ensure that the malevolent entity doesn't just assemble everyone on the last day?

It might be easy to extract this period from a potential victim, since the information would have to get delivered to them in some way.

I think it would already help a lot, that there are some physical limitations on how many people you could gather at the same time.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#126
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think this is even more pronounced if the criminals can keep af gun to your head in your own home when voting? That said - I am yet to see any protocol that is resilient against not showing up IRL (due to the exact reason above).

Criminals showing up to your house, putting a gun to your head, and demanding your vote is a fantasy. You don’t need to defend against it because it’s a totally unscalable way to steal an election.

happened in annexed parts of Ukraine during "referendum"

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#127
post #43

Personally I love the idea of a fully verifiable election. I do the the current election protocol my county uses is pretty good: you present id in one room, they check your eligibility, then you’re given an anonymous ticket, in another room you vote using said ticket, and get a receipt. You can see your but counted online using said receipt. There are two problems with this: 1. You can’t verify extra or in eligible v…

Please forget about showing up physically, it's noble to think of "you really care" but in places with organized crime they have ways to count if those that depend on them come and vote for their "right" choice. It has been estimated that around 20-30% of IRL votes in Italy follow the organized crimes choice.

since you have to be alone in the voting booth and your vote is anonymous it can't be bought.

You can say that you voted for X, but vote for Y and noone will ever be able to tell.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#128
post #118
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voting doesn't have to be any different From your long sibling thread I gather that for you it is more important to be able to verify the votes by yourself through the output of the voting system (the excel example) than to be able to reason through the voting system itself. Whereas for schroeding it is more important to be able to conceptually understand and scrutinize the voting process as a whole, even though it…

> paper ballots that are securely physically transported to a central location (all of them) and counted by people surrounded by observers (all in one sitting). That is unnecessary complexity already. Ballots can be counted directly in the voting stations, by the local citizens. If you want to check your vote is counted correctly, stay to witness the counting. After the results have been counted, they can be communic…

This would be more realistic, and everyone can still understand it, so it is another good example. The point was to provide an extreme system to highlight the value of simplicity in the dynamics of trust in a voting system.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a better measure against this is not physical presence, but allowing one individual to exercise their vote any number of times until the ballot period ends. This means that a malevolent entity that wants to influence votes needs to sequester the voter(s) for the whole ballot period, which is vastly more difficult than putting a gun to someone's head for a single vote. Executing this at scale so the effect can…

I actually love this. I always cast my vote on election day because I want to have the most information. What if I vote early, then the person I voted for has a major scandal the day before the polls close? Being able to change one's vote would remove all the disincentive to voting early or whenever it's most convenient for you.

It works like this in Sweden.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually love this. I always cast my vote on election day because I want to have the most information. What if I vote early, then the person I voted for has a major scandal the day before the polls close? Being able to change one's vote would remove all the disincentive to voting early or whenever it's most convenient for you.

If you're changing your vote based on which side was the latest to have a major "scandal", you're part of the problem.

Generally yes, but it depends on what the scandal is.
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