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Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

belenios.org

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Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#91
post #84
post #14

Tom Scott videos which cover why electronic voting is a bad idea: https://youtu.be/w3_0x6oaDmI?si=kGDOYOb_RiiQaZ3u https://youtu.be/LkH2r-sNjQs?si=YdQgNC4uUZDUDbab

What if you want your citizens to be able to vote on policy matters in real time to make things more democratic? It would be too burdensome with pencil and paper. Alternatives are useful.

> vote on policy matters in real time to make things more democratic

Discussion, debades and more generally exchanging opinions with others and pondering the options before committing to a decision are important if not essential for proper functioning of democracy. This necessarily takes time. How would real-time voting make things more democratic? I see no advantage in making the process hasty. If anything, it would trivialize the process, like voting for a game show on television, which would definitely be bad.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Representatives from both parties are present for voting and ballot counting. They have observation areas. Plus they keep electronic and paper records. The few people who attempt voting fraud are easily caught. Parties abandoned ballot box stuffing in favor of gerrymandering and other voter suppression tactics long ago.

Where I am located, there are ballot boxes literally on the side of the road, and we have universal absentee balloting. Anyone who can acquire ballots, perhaps from non interested voters, or those who can be pressured, can submit ballots and there would be no feasible way to know. Election day, in person secret voting, with voter ID is the way.

The absentee voting process is still audited at every step. They even have observer areas in the ballot printing facilities now. How would a party ever subvert the process that exists to stuff ballots at any scale?

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Voting doesn't have to be any different. Yes, it has to be. If you break the ability for the average citizen to understand exactly how and why your vote is counted, you undermine trust. Trust into the democratic process is the thing keeping a democracy alive. If someone currently says " / interfered with the voting process!", I can tell them to just observe their local polling station or even become part of the pol…

I completely disagree. You claim: > Check that the numbers they count are equal to the one on the official result for the polling station. It's all paper. It's easy to follow. I say that, using paper, it's not easy -- it's next to impossible for any individual to do. On the other hand, if I can download a file of voting results, import it into Excel, and run SUM(), it's about a million times easier . What's important…

I don't know what the US does, but in Germany all ballots are poured onto a big table and then sorted into staples for each candidate / party. Especially since the votes / crosses are always at the same position for each staple, it is trivial to keep an eye on 5, 6 staples at once, and the remaining parties get almost no votes anyway. After that, the staples are split into 10s and counted by two people, independently, after each other. All results are called out loud. The results are also given to the city hall via phone, so everyone in the room can hear it. City hall publishes the official results per party per polling station as nice images, easily digestible. I don't see how this is next to impossible to supervise, even for a single individual.

If you want, you can even stay the whole day and keep an eye on the whole voting process except when the voters make their choice behind the privacy screen, you can see everything which enters the ballot box. I've seen myself someone regaining trust in the democratic process because of this - a guy who openly accused us, the polling station workers, of voting manipulation, being openly hostile, agreeing that everything was done correctly in the end. This would've been impossible while using electronic or online voting.

> it's about a million times easier.

If you, as a random citizen, know SUM() and even think about downloading the data for Excel, you are the top-n% in computer literacy. You are aware of that, right? ^^'

For most people, verifying their own vote on a website with no understanding of the underlying process is the absolute maximum you can expect, IMO. In this case, it is "trusting a magic box with a display". You compared it yourself with HTTPS, for which the same is true for the general public.

> What's important to rely on is the fact that people are able to verify that their own votes are consistent with what's in the public votes

But will people do this at scale and do people trust that they do so? The latter is the most important. It doesn't have to make statistical sense, it's about feelings in this case.

Because if most people (of a certain demographic like the elderly) don't check their own vote or a significant amount of people don't believe that they do so, you cannot automatically assume that all votes in the polling station have been counted correctly. It may have been e.g. only the votes of certain demographics (who are unlikely to check their own votes), which have been tampered, even if this believe is statistically unjustified.

If you supervise a whole analog polling station, you see for yourself this is not the case.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#94
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't think this is even more pronounced if the criminals can keep af gun to your head in your own home when voting? That said - I am yet to see any protocol that is resilient against not showing up IRL (due to the exact reason above).

Criminals showing up to your house, putting a gun to your head, and demanding your vote is a fantasy. You don’t need to defend against it because it’s a totally unscalable way to steal an election.

Apparently it is not fantasy that these people do it at the locations.

I think more creative thinking on how the schemes could look will show some scalable solutions to coerce votes.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you need to ensure that the vote is given without anyone interfering.

I think a better measure against this is not physical presence, but allowing one individual to exercise their vote any number of times until the ballot period ends. This means that a malevolent entity that wants to influence votes needs to sequester the voter(s) for the whole ballot period, which is vastly more difficult than putting a gun to someone's head for a single vote. Executing this at scale so the effect can…

This is a interesting idea. I reckon the individual voting period would have to be randomized to ensure that the malevolent entity doesn't just assemble everyone on the last day?

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#96
post #14

Tom Scott videos which cover why electronic voting is a bad idea: https://youtu.be/w3_0x6oaDmI?si=kGDOYOb_RiiQaZ3u https://youtu.be/LkH2r-sNjQs?si=YdQgNC4uUZDUDbab

Something being hard does not mean that it should not be tried. There are methods for preventing all the issues Tom Scott raises.

Suppose for the sake of the argument we implement such methods that bring the level of security of the digital vote to be mostly equivalent to paper voting (though I do not think this is possible). Then why do you think it would be better to use a harder method of counting votes? I do not see a strong argument to justify the change. The burden of proof is on the new technology, not on the old one that has been working so far.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#97
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to say. AFAIK, no one has worked out a way that you can verify that your own vote was counted, while preventing you from being able to sell your vote.

There are a number of such systems that do this via revoting or dummy ballots. One of my projects, Votexx, uses vote nullification (or flipping) via a trusted third party chosen by the voter. The general idea for all of these is if you add uncertainty you reduce what a coercer is willing to pay creating a mutually assured destruction scenario whereby the system being in place ensures nobody ever tries it. Votexx.org…

The website on VoteXX and associated 4 page preprint does not offer comprehensive overview of the system. What happens to verifiabiloty when the vote is nullified? Does voter sees that the vote is cancelled and hence also coercer/briber?

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. You claim: > Check that the numbers they count are equal to the one on the official result for the polling station. It's all paper. It's easy to follow. I say that, using paper, it's not easy -- it's next to impossible for any individual to do. On the other hand, if I can download a file of voting results, import it into Excel, and run SUM(), it's about a million times easier . What's important…

I don't know what the US does, but in Germany all ballots are poured onto a big table and then sorted into staples for each candidate / party. Especially since the votes / crosses are always at the same position for each staple, it is trivial to keep an eye on 5, 6 staples at once, and the remaining parties get almost no votes anyway. After that, the staples are split into 10s and counted by two people, independently…

>> What's important to rely on is the fact that people are able to verify that their own votes are consistent with what's in the public votes

> But will people do this at scale and do people trust that they do so? The latter is the most important.

Yes, absolutely. This is the most important, and that's what makes it all so easy! If you don't trust, verifying your own vote is a click away. If you think there's something fishy in your town, ping a few friends and ask them to verify. Journalists and international observers can sample a few thousand randomly chosen people and verify that the election is at least 99.9% accurate.

Because we all know that if journalists find even any pattern of people whose votes aren't getting counted, or were changed, it would be front-page national scandal news.

The whole process you're describing for physical polling places is a million times more work for any individual. It requires a massive amount of time and attention.

Meanwhile, with electronic/online voting, all you need to do is see if people are reporting discrepancies that hold up upon further investigation. If they're not, then it all works. I don't understand why you think people wouldn't trust this. It's dead simple.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#99
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Criminals showing up to your house, putting a gun to your head, and demanding your vote is a fantasy. You don’t need to defend against it because it’s a totally unscalable way to steal an election.

Apparently it is not fantasy that these people do it at the locations. I think more creative thinking on how the schemes could look will show some scalable solutions to coerce votes.

You’re talking about voter intimidation at polling places, right? Yes, that is in fact well documented and not a fantasy.

You can send a couple guys with bats to a polling location and coerce hundreds of voters. What you’re describing would require a highly organized set of crimes taking years of man hours that would definitely attract law enforcement due to the prolonged time and scale. Fantasy.

“Creative thinking” is leading you down the path of made up problems with ludicrous solutions.

Re: Belenios: Verifiable online voting system

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, as long as it's a random sample

Absolutely, as long as I get to pick the random number generator that generates the random sample.

One way to resolve the issue is to use a distributed randomness generator like DRand which is threshold decryption based and hence can offer some robustness as well.
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