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Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

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Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#191

Post by hosh »

tikhonj wrote: post #11

"a flash of inspiration connecting internalized concepts" Well, okay, but rote memorization is neither necessary nor sufficient to internalize concepts. One of the reasons people make fun of the author's approach to creativity is that systematic memorization fundamentally can't teach taste —so the systematic approach reeks of awkward, try-hard, low-brow, tasteless art. More broadly, memorization doesn't help much wit…

I think it is more of becoming fluent with primitives that can be composed in versatile ways. I can see how that can be poorly understood as memorization.

The main implication is that if what you are “memorizing” is not easily composable, then you won’t be able to apply them broadly or creatively.

However, I disagree with the author on what creativity is, although his definition is one experience of a creative inspiration.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#192

Post by Izkata »

Sammi wrote: post #77
Llamamoe wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I can agree, as an extremely creative person with extremely bad memory - to a point where I pretty much never memorize anything , whether intentionally or by accident. What I find instead, is that by just processing novel information, especially if I focus on analysing it, my brain internalizes insights and builds model of that type of thing, allowing me to either imperfectly reconstruct what I've seen,…

"What I find instead, is that by just processing novel information, especially if I focus on analysing it, my brain internalizes insights and builds model of that type of thing" Sorry, but this is memoization.

> > and builds model

> memoization

Was this intentional and no one caught on? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoization

Or just a typo?

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#193

Post by ugh123 »

zharknado wrote: post #132

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

Makes total sense. Kinda like how we can't train an LLM how to speak by just giving it a dictionary.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#194

Post by agumonkey »

WalterBright wrote: post #182
zharknado wrote: post #132

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

The EEs I have known that carried around a card with: V = I * R I = V / R R = V / I because they couldn't remember it were all bad at EE and bad at math. If you can't remember the pieces making up a concept, how are you going to remember the concept? > It’s disproportionately important for passing tests (And getting hired at tech companies!) I don't remember anyone who couldn't pass tests but was really a great engin…

Some times the brain is wired to intuit the concept. That's something that fascinates me. You grasp the idea before any articulate explanation. Somebody shows you a problem and rapidly you start discussing solutions with the other person and even go further.

Most of the time memorization is a key role for creativity, the easier you can jump between ideas the more combinations you can explore (seems like the brain is constrained by some cache bottleneck in a way).

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#195

Post by flir »

groby_b wrote: post #147
flir wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the reasons people make fun of the author's approach to creativity is that systematic memorization fundamentally can't teach taste—so the systematic approach reeks of awkward, try-hard, low-brow, tasteless art. Well... can you think of an artist who didn't have a deep knowledge of their art-form before they pushed it forward? Three that jump out for me, in no particular order, are Picasso, Borges and Jack Wh…

Wait, why do you think Picasso didn't have deep knowledge? He studied both at the School of Fine Arts in Barcelona & the Royal Academy of San Fernando in Madrid, for ~5 years before moving to Paris. Borges was incredibly talented, but it's worth keeping in mind his dad was a writer too. Good art very much relies on being exposed to lots of other good art first. I don't know that rote memorization is the best way to a…

Sorry, I must have expressed myself badly. I'm picking examples of people I think did/do have deep knowledge of their chosen mediums.

I don't think it's possible to have "good taste" without exposure to lots of examples, because I believe taste it culturally bound. Whether you do it explicity via a system, or on a more ad hoc basis, I think most artists need it.

It might be interesting to look at film, where the process is compressed into a couple of generations. I don't know it it will support my argument or not.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#196

Post by Izkata »

hosh wrote: post #188
Izkata wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also good luck learning to read Chinese or Japanese without rote learning a few hundred characters. Even native speakers learn them by repetition. I've tried this for years with Japanese kanji and never really got very far. Just didn't work well, they largely were just a big blob of lines. Then I found an Android app (Kanji Study) that mixes this in with informational screens that break down kanji into radicals and…

Learning to read Chinese is done by learning to write Chinese. The strict (but structured) stroke order while writing becomes part of muscle memory, and in turn, becomes a kind of kinesthetic mnemonic device while reading.

The app I mentioned has that too, but stepping back and giving context helps me more.

For example, 語 being composed of 言, 五, and 口 reduces it down to 3 things instead of 14 strokes. This is an easy one since the parts are distinct, but plenty aren't nearly as obvious, like the left side of 教

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#197

Post by MisterBastahrd »

linearrust wrote: post #136
zharknado wrote: post #132

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

> It’s the difference between drilling vocabulary flashcards and actually reading, listening, or talking to someone. You need the 'flashcards' before you can read, listen or talk. Go try reading a book where you don't know most of the words. Heck you need 'flashcards' before you needs 'flashcards for words'. You need to memorize the alphabet first. Try reading a text where you haven't learned the writing system. > Yo…

Kids say mama almost universally and regardless of their local language because it's an easy sound to make.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#198

Post by saint_fiasco »

Being forced to do rote exercises sometimes makes you creative. Solve a thousand trivial multiplication problems and you will spontaneously discover lots of shortcuts, patterns, intuitions that can warn you when you make a mistake and so on.

A common issue I notice when people discuss the terrible state of math education in the US is that teachers demand that you solve a problem a specific way, such as multiplying two-digit numbers by drawing base-ten blocks and applying the distributive property.

People who are good at doing multiplication in their head think the method makes perfect sense and don't know what all the fuss is about. But I believe that those people learned how to apply the distributive property "by themselves". That is, by adults forcing them to multiply two-digit numbers over and over until they developed an intuition of the distributive property by necessity.

When people who didn't go through countless drills are taught the base-ten method directly, they have a harder time understanding it. So ironically it is the students who "mindlessly" drill trivial computations over and over that are more prepared to have a "true" understanding of the distributive property, while the ones whose teachers believe drilling is for chumps and try to just explicitly show them the true distributive right away, they end up memorizing the words of the distributive property without understanding it.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#199

Post by lo_zamoyski »

ugh123 wrote: post #193
zharknado wrote: post #132

OP and others here are stretching the definition of “memorize” to mean “anything that leads to something being retained in memory.” I reject this idea. The trauma of burning your hand on a hot pan creates a memory you won’t soon forget, but almost no one would understand it as an act of memorization. Memorization to me refers to a set of cargo-culty “learning” practices wherein we believe that by using language to dr…

Makes total sense. Kinda like how we can't train an LLM how to speak by just giving it a dictionary.

I am not commenting on or agreeing with the OP, but your response is false. LLMs aren't given just a dictionary, and they do not know how to speak. Speech implies grasp of semantics. There is zero semantics in a block of text, only, according to some interpretation, various textual correlations.

Re: Creativity fundamentally comes from memorization?

#200

Post by Llamamoe »

Sammi wrote: post #77
Llamamoe wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I can agree, as an extremely creative person with extremely bad memory - to a point where I pretty much never memorize anything , whether intentionally or by accident. What I find instead, is that by just processing novel information, especially if I focus on analysing it, my brain internalizes insights and builds model of that type of thing, allowing me to either imperfectly reconstruct what I've seen,…

"What I find instead, is that by just processing novel information, especially if I focus on analysing it, my brain internalizes insights and builds model of that type of thing" Sorry, but this is memoization.

If I cannot recall the information or even that I've come across it unprompted, is it really? Because that's my norm, and I still retain insights from that, that are then applicable across topics.
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