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Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

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Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#91
post #85

Thank you for this, it’s sorely needed. One thing I didn’t see mention of is group membership. Is this / will this be part of the core offering? Being able to map IDP group membership to permissions within your SaaS is powerful, and in my experience highly desired by clients.

Yeah, we have this -- if you check out the docs for the endpoint where you accept a SAML login[1], there's an `attributes` (map) that SSOReady returns to you. That contains the contents of the relevant SAML assertion's AttributeStatement.

So if you're familiar with Okta's parlance, both "Attribute Statements" and "Group Attribute Statements" are returned to you in `attributes`.

[1]: https://ssoready.com/docs/api-reference/saml/redeem-saml-acc...

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#92
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My personal phone number and email is in the sidebar of app.ssoready.com for this exact reason.

That's kind of you, but highly unlikely to be scalable.

That’s ok at this point. They’re purposefully doing certain things that don’t scale.

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#93
post #14

Hi Ulysse, this is incredibly timely as we are looking at a more cost-effective alternative to WorkOS as we're building our enterprise data validation portal. Will give it a go and see how we make out - do you have any immediate instructions on integrating with Entra ID? Is it literally just the API endpoint that's needed?

Hey there - I’m the founder of WorkOS :wave: We have automatic volume discounts for pay-as-you-go users, and even lower prices on annual plans or custom contracts. We also have free credits for early-stage companies. Feel free to send me a note if you’d like to chat: mg@workos.com Today hundreds of companies use WorkOS, including a ton of startups you probably know: https://workos.com/startups

WorkOS is incredible, and we've admired it from afar since launch. We'd like to use it, but aren't sure about the roadmap or applicability for SaaS “app” provider needs that otherwise seem like a perfect match.

So, some questions:

1. First, do workplaces or SaaS app providers not need Android or iOS app support for in-house or client / customer facing apps?

Swift and Kotlin SDKs seem conspicuous by their absence.

https://workos.com/docs/sdks

2. Second, what about OIDC?

I'd argue the majority of business and business employees do not need "SSO", the majority of benefits they think they'd get are met by OIDC ("Sign in with..." buttons) for users with the firm's controlled email address @ firm domain as the login username. A plurality of big firms seem covered just by "Sign in with Microsoft", and "Sign in with Google" to pick up startups or individuals, followed by GitHub for devs or Apple for retail wallet share.

In our shoes, we'd far rather support clients through OIDC than SSO.

3. Third, Google has this covered if a startup bets on it, while Microsoft and AWS are a confusing melange of some 20 years of backwards compatibility, making bridging from devices into their Microsoft Entra or AWS IAM worlds hard to understand even if fully supported.

At the same time, many businesses with real budgets are "required" by senior management to stay within those ecosystems.

This calls for a frictionless experience and abstraction on top that uses the native mechanisms under the hood so the rest of the CSP ecosystem understands the users' identities, roles, and attributes, enabling CSP native security to protect the CSPs other offerings.

Have you considered being the experience on top of AWS's Cognito for example, letting you drive it and then IAM RBAC for their various systems, effectively offloading "securing" of the mechanisms to the CSP, while handling the complexity that only those who've learned those mechanisms can master?

For reasons, we want to bet our actual under-the-hood security controls on the CSP's security controls. For example, of all participants, they have the most to lose from a controls failure. And some, like AWS, bring a level of discipline to security controls nobody else seems willing to afford, such as through their "formal reasoning" or "provable security" work:

https://aws.amazon.com/security/provable-security/resources/

Concept:

Ever since you've launched, it's seemed to me that WorkOS might be the best envisioned suite to be the layer on top of CSP native security engines and security controls (directories, secrets, IAM, RBAC/ABAC, row level or cell level security, etc.).

We only have a few dozen employees, and as a startup are very sensitive to recurring costs, but are still heavily regulated. If thinking in developer-hours, we would cheerfully pay up front a quarter or two's worth of dev time (depending on in which market you measure value of dev time) for OOTB "integration" of such a layer on top of the native CSP mechanisms. This could include some nominal and proportional amount relative to, say, the recurring cost of Microsoft Teams (e.g., less than $4 a month) at the consumer end or relative to the delta between M365 and M365 E3/E5 Advanced Security on the enterprise end (if you look at what's included for +$10/month, you can see most per-seat security tools are overpriced:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-365/enterprise-mob...

Given the amount of "stuff" already paid for in one of those plans, that's a lot of "stuff" you wouldn't have to do. Arguably, if you're the frictionless UI and configurator rather than providing the controls themselves, you're out of the "critical path" entirely, meaning easier contracts with businesses where the regulator wants regulated entities to negotiate for financial indemnification if the vendor fails.

TL;DR:

This isn't what you do, and probably shouldn't be, but maybe someone else will read this concept and think they should. We're not the only ones who would buy it!

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#94
post #66
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah SCIM is coming up. Auto-deprovisioning and stuff related to seat management are the big motivators I've seen. Honestly IETF did a pretty good job with SCIM itself. It's not wacky in the way SAML is at all. In my experience the hardest part about integrating SCIM is setting up all the IDP-specific configuration around it. Like with SAML, it's a situation where Okta, Microsoft, OneLogin all have totally different…

Is OIDC2 also comming? While simpler - a similar "self-help" workflow that helped with all big three SAML, SCIM and OIDC2 - with self-hosting would be marvelous.

Agree OIDC (applicable in more use cases than people probably think) means neither side has to worry about SAML + SCIM. That's a win.

Longer comment elsewhere in thread.

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#95
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey there - I’m the founder of WorkOS :wave: We have automatic volume discounts for pay-as-you-go users, and even lower prices on annual plans or custom contracts. We also have free credits for early-stage companies. Feel free to send me a note if you’d like to chat: mg@workos.com Today hundreds of companies use WorkOS, including a ton of startups you probably know: https://workos.com/startups

WorkOS is incredible, and we've admired it from afar since launch. We'd like to use it, but aren't sure about the roadmap or applicability for SaaS “app” provider needs that otherwise seem like a perfect match. So, some questions: 1. First, do workplaces or SaaS app providers not need Android or iOS app support for in-house or client / customer facing apps? Swift and Kotlin SDKs seem conspicuous by their absence. htt…

This is a really thoughtful comment -- thanks for sharing.

Will read through this again and think more carefully about it later today.

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#96

I'm writing my first custom policy for MS's B2C identity provider, and it's a painful process. Making authentication and SSO more painless will actually make the world a better place -- apps will become more secure, people will be less frustrated when they use them, etc., and people like me will have less stress in their lives.

> Making authentication and SSO more painless

Arguably, OAUTH2 + OIDC does this. Firms like Atlassian have understood this:

http://id.atlassian.com

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#97
That's very interesting, at $WORK we recently added SAML support in a similar use case, as a SaaS SP integrating with the customer's IdP.

At the time we looked at various open source implementations, and ended up using OneLogin's PHP library. We wanted a headless library, so we could store the SAML metadata in our main DB and implement the public endpoints on top of it.

It did take a few days of googling and trying, but it wasn't really that complicated. Our core implementation adds up to just some 500 lines of PHP, most which is just glue code to fetch metadata from the db, put it in the format the library expects, and then do the basic thing of sending the user to the IdP, getting the response back, checking it, and mapping a couple of attribute names.

The advantage of this approach is that we were able to made it self service for our users. User logs in as admin, goes to "SAML settings", inputs their metadata, clicks a button to test, and if it's good, clicks another to activate. We did get a few support requests from people who didn't know their own systems very well, but otherwise it's working smoothly.

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#98
post #91
post #85

Thank you for this, it’s sorely needed. One thing I didn’t see mention of is group membership. Is this / will this be part of the core offering? Being able to map IDP group membership to permissions within your SaaS is powerful, and in my experience highly desired by clients.

Yeah, we have this -- if you check out the docs for the endpoint where you accept a SAML login[1], there's an `attributes` (map ) that SSOReady returns to you. That contains the contents of the relevant SAML assertion's AttributeStatement. So if you're familiar with Okta's parlance, both "Attribute Statements" and "Group Attribute Statements" are returned to you in `attributes`. [1]: https://ssoready.com/docs/api-ref…

Magnificent, thank you!

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then fork it and continue like that. At least you have the option as opposed to some proprietary solution

Sure, that's an option. Also an option, when choosing what to use right at the startt, is being careful about using an open source solution from a for-profit startup, and evaluating all your other options, taking into account that it may not remain open source, and if it doesn't, what place it has in your business, how hard it would be to switch then, etc.

Right, the overhead of setting up SAML on your own is _a lot_ and things like this usually come with a Wal-Mart’s worth of foot guns. Even so, I’d be much more keen to spend the time up front diving into it and working on an in-house solution, rather than find myself and my team up a creek with a broken auth solution and several sprints worth of work to fix it, that’s also going to push other work out because logic is critical.

Re: Launch HN: SSOReady (YC W24) – Making SAML SSO painless and open source

#100
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey there - I’m the founder of WorkOS :wave: We have automatic volume discounts for pay-as-you-go users, and even lower prices on annual plans or custom contracts. We also have free credits for early-stage companies. Feel free to send me a note if you’d like to chat: mg@workos.com Today hundreds of companies use WorkOS, including a ton of startups you probably know: https://workos.com/startups

WorkOS is incredible, and we've admired it from afar since launch. We'd like to use it, but aren't sure about the roadmap or applicability for SaaS “app” provider needs that otherwise seem like a perfect match. So, some questions: 1. First, do workplaces or SaaS app providers not need Android or iOS app support for in-house or client / customer facing apps? Swift and Kotlin SDKs seem conspicuous by their absence. htt…

Good questions! My answers (with footnote links):

> 1. Do workplaces or SaaS app providers not need Android or iOS app support

All identity providers are 3rd-party systems that authenticate a user via a web experience. They don’t have a direct way to submit credentials. e.g. In Okta SAML auth, your app redirects the user to a hosted Okta UI which verifies their identity and then redirects back to your app.

WorkOS supports this on mobile via webviews and custom URL schemes, so the redirect back can be `yourapp://callback` etc. This is simple enough to build that developers haven’t asked us for a custom Swift/Kotlin SDK. However, it’s still a good point you raise and we should add better docs. Will make a note.

> 2. What about OIDC?

WorkOS supports SSO via OIDC including Okta OIDC. In practice we have found OIDC much less common than SAML despite it being an improved protocol with fewer sharp edges. I’m not sure why this is other than legacy enterprise IT vendors being slow to change. Perhaps OIDC is 2x better but not 10x better.

There are lots of cool ideas to improve the world of SAML+SCIM including FastFed [1] but unfortunately they are stuck in a proposal/prototype state and have not yet overcome the coordination headwind of multiple vendors simultaneously launching support. I hope it happens someday!

> 3. Have you considered being the experience on top of AWS's Cognito…

It’s an interesting idea to build a better front-end to Cognito and similar platforms so developers can leverage underlying CSPs. In a sense this is what we’ve done with WorkOS SSO [2], which abstracts all the hairy bits of SAML behind a simple OAuth API. We’ve done the same thing with SCIM [3] by integrating all the various directory systems into a single API with modern semantics and predictable responses. WorkOS is like “Stripe for enterprise features.”

What I’ve personally seen is the innovation cycle for Cognito is glacially slow. As an example, at AWS Re:Invent last year there were zero sessions on Cognito and I couldn’t find a single PM to talk about the product. Perhaps Amazon will eventually ship something but today Cognito is clearly not a priority for them.

So instead we built WorkOS. We started with SSO and SCIM and then launched the Admin Portal [4] which makes IT configuration — otherwise a headache inducing process — an easy self-serve wizard. This design has been successful enough that we’ve attracted competition (and even some open source clones. ;)) Overall though I am glad to see more people working to improve the lives of developers building enterprise SaaS.

In the last couple years, WorkOS have been expanding our product into other areas of the IAM stack. Last year we launched a fully-managed identity service called AuthKit [5] which includes powerful features like session management, impersonation, and RBAC. AuthKit is an alternative to Auth0 but it’s free up to 1,000,000 users.

A few months ago WorkOS acquired Warrant (YC S21) [6, 7] which provides a fine-grained authorization (FGA) service inspired by Google Zanzibar. This enables developers to model even the most complex data authorization with a single runtime. Warrant is open source and is an alternative to AWS Cedar, SpiceDB, and Oso, and other. But it has some differences, such as the “edge agent” which allows permission checks to be evaluated locally within your app. Super fast, no HTTP requests required. [8]

We also love open source. WorkOS builds Radix UI [9] which has something like 30M monthly downloads and powers the design systems for Linear, Vercel, and others. I even considered starting WorkOS as an open source platform. But what we heard from developers was that code was only part of the solution. They wanted a service that included ongoing support and dependable uptime. They want to just pay and make the “enterprise problem” go away. That’s what WorkOS does.

We’ve found smaller startups are also fine to pay for features like SAML and SCIM because they enable selling upmarket and unlocking enterprise revenue. Often startups will just pass on the WorkOS cost in their own enterprise contracts. Our pricing is usage-based, transparent, and easy to understand. And it doesn’t require clicking “Contact Us” and negotiating with a sales rep. [10]

Building a layer on top of other IAM/CSP systems initially sounds appealing, but ultimately I don’t believe it will let us achieve the goal of providing the best possible developer experience with the most robust features to users. To do this right we need to invest deeply in the technology primitives. We’ve raised $100m and today have hundreds of customers and millions in revenue so we’re well on track to solve this problem for everyone.

Hope this adds more color. Happy to answer other questions here or via email anytime. I’m mg@workos.com

[1] https://openid.net/wg/fastfed/

[2] https://workos.com/single-sign-on

[3] https://workos.com/directory-sync

[4] https://workos.com/admin-portal

[5] https://authkit.com

[6] http://warrant.dev

[7] https://workos.com/blog/workos-acquires-warrant

[8] https://github.com/warrant-dev/edge-agent

[9] http://radix-ui.com

[10] https://workos.com/pricing

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