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Why doesn't advice work?

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Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#231

Post by lazide »

smeej wrote: post #209
throwaway22032 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has some of the traits this is absolutely it. When you spend your childhood being told by people to do things that will lead to, well, almost certainly being poor and having a shit life, you learn to just ignore advice and do the opposite. It is really hard to unlearn this in adulthood. I tend to get by by judging the person giving the advice e.g. if they seem successful then they are more likely to be…

I developed something like this, but it manifests more as "question everything until it makes sense to me. " I feel like I'm constitutionally incapable of taking anybody's word for anything, but it's vastly worse for anyone who reacts with hostility to my questions about points that don't make sense to me. It was very much trained into me by my father that following the advice of those people leads to suffering and p…

Are you me? If not, are you really sure?

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#232

Post by jayd16 »

xeromal wrote: post #208
slim wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Where is that implied other than the wife not being interested in learning a specific domain.

> Smart people want to solve their own problems

> Your spouse does not want to know how it works so that they can fix it themselves

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#233

Post by golemiprague »

efitz wrote: post #183

Hard lessons I've learned: 1. It doesn't matter what your title is, how much expert education, training, or experience you have, or even what hard lessons that you have learned: you are not an "expert" in an area unless you are invited in as an "expert". Put another way, unsolicited advice is unwelcome. 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a se…

When you say spouse do you mean a male or female spouse? because the patterns of communication are very different between the two genders.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#234

Post by risenshinetech »

lmm wrote: post #215
efitz wrote: post #183

Hard lessons I've learned: 1. It doesn't matter what your title is, how much expert education, training, or experience you have, or even what hard lessons that you have learned: you are not an "expert" in an area unless you are invited in as an "expert". Put another way, unsolicited advice is unwelcome. 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a se…

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#235

Post by risenshinetech »

liotier wrote: post #201
slim wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Or a smart overwhelmed person who comes home tired and would love not to have to consider extra problems on top of family life and their demanding job. Plenty smart in a domain and just doesn't want to think in another is a common pattern.

As someone pointed out elsewhere, their very own comment makes this implication:

> Smart people want to solve their own problems

> Your spouse does not want to know how it works so that they can fix it themselves

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#236

Post by makeitdouble »

wdh505 wrote: post #230
makeitdouble wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3. Your spouse just wants to vent, UNLESS they say "fix it" Or talk to your spouse, get to know them, and build a sense of what they absolutely need to know (e.g. you don't want or can't spend the rest of your life doing it for them and no one else will), what they don't need to care about, and what space of mind they're in. You're hopefully stuck with them for a very long time, investing time and effort to underst…

Have you heard of the 6 geniuses? It is a book that proposes that there are 6 areas of "managing" one's self and others, and some are areas of genius and some are areas of frustration and some are competencies. The book also proposes that spouses who are compatible tend to have complimentary areas of genius and frustration. More to your point: if someone has an area of frustration to discern what course of action wil…

I haven't read the book, but can empathize with the complementary angle.

Yet it's just complex, and it's also a moving target. In particular, there will be areas where there's no way out of both being at least competent and self sufficient.

For instance if you live in the middle of nowhere with only a road connecting you to civilization, your partner giving up on driving can't just be a "frustration" area you cover with your "genius".

Same way if you live in the forest you won't get away with shouting and fainting every time you see a bug.

The partner might be there to help adapt, the most severe issues can be mitigated, but fundamentally there's no way out. (now I also assume most reasonable people won't just be there shouting "FIX IT"). And we're not counting the parts where both have it as frustration in the first place ("fix the printer" ?)

The "genius" vs "frustration" split looks to me decent for some cases, not good enough in others, and not applicable for the most critical stuff, with couples still needing to think long and hard about where they strike the balance on each of their areas.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#237

Post by bawolff »

Sometimes i think people give advice because its easier to tell someone how to do something in theory then actually do it.

Most of the time, there are multiple ways of doing something, with trade offs, and advice is just one choice in that space. People who are actually doing things get to make that choice.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#238

Post by kerkeslager »

efitz wrote: post #183

Hard lessons I've learned: 1. It doesn't matter what your title is, how much expert education, training, or experience you have, or even what hard lessons that you have learned: you are not an "expert" in an area unless you are invited in as an "expert". Put another way, unsolicited advice is unwelcome. 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a se…

A really simple way to bypass a lot of issues is simply to ask: "Do you want my advice?" And accept "No" if that's the answer.

Often, the answer is actually "Yes", and the same advice that would have been taken as criticism if given without consent, is accepted.

All unsolicited advice is taken as criticism. But there's no rule that you can't offer the opportunity to solicit advice.

Other ways of asking might be appropriate depending on the situation, like "Do you want to hear what I would do?" or "Either is okay; I just want to know: are you looking for solutions or are you looking to vent?"

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#239

Post by bawolff »

meken wrote: post #140
throwawayq3423 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. This is great. It's empathetic and much more likely to be heard and received.

I often find myself taking this approach, but it’s still manipulative because it’s just me masking the fact that I’m really just trying to tell them what to do.

There is a big difference between giving advice and giving orders.

If you are (e.g.) someone's manager, and you need them to do X, then you should say that. There is nothing worse than being unsure if something is a suggestion or a mandatory "suggestion".

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#240

Post by ahartman00 »

MikeTheGreat wrote: post #116
resource_waste wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was at a bakery grand opening from an uneducated rural family. Plenty of their rural friends listened to the difficulties, wished them the best. Bring in the MBA + Industrial Engineer, and tell them some advice on processes, economics, and as a bonus, I was an Electrical Engineer for a few years so I had some advice on their oven problem. What is better? The person that says "You look beautiful", or "You have a pie…

Thank you for sharing! Based on your last sentence I think we're in agreement that it's probably not great to give someone unsolicited advice (but it's fine if we disagree). I wanted to throw out a couple more thoughts: I think that having experience in the business (or not) is important. I think that sometimes giving advice on an area that one doesn't have experience in can be a weird way to put oneself in a 'one up…

I've heard it called engineer's syndrome. "You start believing that since you're an excellent engineer in one specialty, then you're a friggin' genius in everything you do, because it's all the same, really" [0]

It apparently affects physicists too, and must be common enough to warrant two xkcds. [1][2]

0. https://web.archive.org/web/20071226220909/http://www.pcmag.... 1. https://xkcd.com/1831/ 2. https://xkcd.com/793/

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