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Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

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Re: Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

#51

Post by runjake »

olliej wrote: post #6
troyharvey wrote: post #3

I started a thread of specific complaints on Twitter and tagged @jensimmons. Every issue was quietly resolved a few releases later.

… so you reported bugs and they were fixed?

To be fair, this is a rare occurrence, from my own experiences with reporting bugs to Apple, along with what I hear from others. I have over two pages of bug reports spanning a couple decades marked as "in-progress" or "needs to be reviewed".

These are solid bug reports with PoCs and backing data that took me a lot of time to assemble, not just "Safari don't work". Maybe 10% of my bugs are fixed or closed with "won't fix".

Re: Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

#53

Post by olliej »

runjake wrote: post #51
olliej wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

… so you reported bugs and they were fixed?

To be fair, this is a rare occurrence, from my own experiences with reporting bugs to Apple, along with what I hear from others. I have over two pages of bug reports spanning a couple decades marked as "in-progress" or "needs to be reviewed". These are solid bug reports with PoCs and backing data that took me a lot of time to assemble, not just "Safari don't work". Maybe 10% of my bugs are fixed or closed with "won't…

One thing to consider, if you're filing bugs on webkit (e.g engine issues vs. the safari app) is reporting them to bugs.webkit.org, which if nothing else results in more accessible info for you.

The also used to be a fairly active irc channel back in the day, but I vaguely recall articles a few years ago about free node shutting down or something, so I'm not sure where discussions actually happen these days.

Re: Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

#54

Post by asadotzler »

ezfe wrote: post #10
judiisis wrote: post #7

Also not supporting PWAs and in general being behind and ocking on next gen web features

Safari absolutely supports PWAs. There are features it doesn't support, but the premise is supported.

If you don't support the PWA features people want PWAs for, then claiming PWA support is silly.

Re: Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

#55

Post by dwaite »

judiisis wrote: post #7

Also not supporting PWAs and in general being behind and ocking on next gen web features

PWA is a "progressive web app" - a normal web app that can use additional features when available. Everything beyond straight HTML (including CSS and Javascript) is considered "progressive". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement

There are many features put under the marketing banner of "PWA" that Safari supports. A large number of the ones which Safari _doesn't_ support are only supported by the Blink engine, and are not on a standards track. Many of these other browser engines have explicitly said they will not support due to the design being harmful for the web.

Google themselves have slowed down significantly on new "PWA" features since ChromeOS started supporting running native Android apps.

Re: Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

#56

Post by dwaite »

mgarfias wrote: post #52

I've seen under the apple skirt, and the incentive structure there is such that these issues are inevitable. You get more RSUs and promotions when you make something new, and not when you make something simpler and more robust.

This is a problem I've heard from most large tech companies, most notably Google.

Do you have an example of a company which has been successful with an alternative incentive structure that doesn't have these issues, perhaps one that pushes for more siloed products and rewards employees based on ongoing financial success?

Re: Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

#57

Post by dwaite »

dewey wrote: post #23

> You can earn our trust back, but only by stopping this relationship now and putting our privacy first. I don't mind if Google is an option, but there should be an easy way to add third party search engines too (On top of the new modal where you can pick your default search engine in the EU at least). For Kagi you have to install an extension just to overwrite that: https://help.kagi.com/kagi/getting-started/setting…

There's a lot of press about the revenue sharing deals that Apple has with Google (and soon OpenAI on the AI query front).

I think from there that a common assumption formed that Apple does _not_ have a revenue sharing deal required by all partners in these integration categories.

Re: Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

#59

Post by difosfor »

I'm in Europe but as far as I know we're still stuck with WebKit browsers here as well with no sign of any other browser engines being made available through any alternative app stores. I think Apple has made it theoreticallly possible, but practically impossible and some charges were made against them for it.

Re: Dear Safari, Things I Hate About You

#60

Post by dwaite »

The list of issues with the Apple/Google relationship has a lot of unsubstantiated claims, such as sharing full web browsing history. Does anyone have a reference to where that claim comes from?

Their claim that Safari has gotten slow is that other browsers have gotten better, not that there has been any negative performance changes. I would suspect that HTML rendering as well as Javascript execution have significant diminishing returns on performance improvement investments.

Their first reference it there being issues with Web Extensions was to some person's random GitHub issue tracker, which isn't being updated when issues are fixed and doesn't necessarily provide a FB number to show it was raised to Apple. This IMHO is somewhat Apple's fault as they haven't contributed a Web Extension API component to WebKit; it is a Safari feature and needs to be raised as Feedback (which is then not externally referencable, and may not be updated as internal duplicates of the issue are closed).

The 4th thing in the article title/headline "Dear Safari, 4 Things I Hate About You"... seems to be missing?

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