Why doesn't advice work? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#191

Post by Einenlum » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 8:46 PM UTC

intended wrote: post #128

The example in the article about climbing is “When in doubt, move your feet up.” For giving good advice, I’d say the answer is don’t give advice. It’s very rare to enjoy such a massive experience and information advantage that you can say “be the sword”, at just the right moment, to grant someone enlightenment. Good “advice” is work - you solve a problem. If you want to help , engage in problem solving. Which is mile…

> If asked a question, a common response from me would be:“this is the answer based on what you said, but it seems it would be obvious/ I suspect you have considered it. Am I missing something ?"

Damn, I love this. Thank you!

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#192

Post by darth_avocado » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 8:57 PM UTC

ryanmcbride wrote: post #98

The rules I have for myself when giving advice are: 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. 2. LISTEN TO THEIR ACTUAL PROBLEM ALL THE WAY. 3. Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. 4. Remember that the purpose of giving advice is just to illuminate options, not to have someone follow what you recommend to the letter. 5. As the advice giver understand that you could b…

> Unsolicited advice is always criticism.

It's a balance. Sometimes people ARE looking for advice, but do not present it that way. So if you don't provide your input, you come across as an a**le. Figuring out whether that's the case can be tricky based on your relationship with the person.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#193

Post by rightbyte » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 8:58 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #29

I persuaded one person to start nasal rinsing and another person to start singing. That is my list of successes at 45 years of age.

I noticed my brother had tied his shoes the wrong way his whole life (grandma knot). He was grateful when I showed him the proper way.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#194

Post by lkrubner » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 9:01 PM UTC

This applies to startups. I give good advice to the CEO. The CEO often ignores my advice, and so the startup is destroyed. The startup would have done better if we had followed my advice. I documented a case here:

https://respectfulleadership.substack.com/p/startups-should-...

Another case here:

https://www.amazon.com/Destroy-Tech-Startup-Three-Steps-eboo...

I struggle with the question, "How do I manage upwards? How do I gain influence over the CEO?"

Often the problem is that there is a group of people who tell the CEO exactly what the CEO wants to hear. Some of these people are manipulative con artists, but others are folks who sincerely agree with the CEO.

So then the question becomes, "When multiple people give the CEO advice, how does the CEO know that my advice is the correct advice?"

The problems are well-illustrated in the article linked above. Does Alice have foibles? Does that make her unable to follow advice? Likewise with the CEO. Would the startup even be having so many problems if the CEO was more talented? If the CEO was smart enough to know that my advice was the correct advice then would the company be in trouble at all? Wouldn't the CEO have already foreseen and forestalled the problem from existing?

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#195

Post by screye » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 9:02 PM UTC

> advice is incomplete without lived experience.

This bit is usually the crux.

It's not about your lived experience, but it has to be some lived experience that's felt viscerally. It can be your own, it can be in 2nd second person. It's about the feeling it drives. Not so much the frame/POV.

Good advice is visceral, limited, targeted and helps get the person to the immediate next 'better' state.

In military parlance, it's what helps you complete 1 single ooda loop. In ML parlance it's what helps complete 1 gradient update.

Big picture advice only works if the person has already built trust with associated mini-advice over many steps. In ML parlance, you can't increase the learning rate until you have high confidence in the direction of the gradient.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#196

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 9:03 PM UTC

ryanmcbride wrote: post #98

The rules I have for myself when giving advice are: 1. Unsolicited advice is always criticism. 2. LISTEN TO THEIR ACTUAL PROBLEM ALL THE WAY. 3. Never tell someone what they should do, tell them what you would do in that situation. 4. Remember that the purpose of giving advice is just to illuminate options, not to have someone follow what you recommend to the letter. 5. As the advice giver understand that you could b…

[deleted]

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#197

Post by rudasn » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 9:14 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #59

Good Advice is Contingent Someone wrote a post that I can't find right now with a title like that - good advice accounts for the target's personal situation. Good advice is not a list of winning lottery numbers, it's a description of a state transition; some state transitions are really hard and scary.

"State transition" is very well put, as in that's almost always the end result of either seeking advice, receiving it, or giving it.

Thanks.

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#198

Post by slim » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 9:18 PM UTC

efitz wrote: post #183

Hard lessons I've learned: 1. It doesn't matter what your title is, how much expert education, training, or experience you have, or even what hard lessons that you have learned: you are not an "expert" in an area unless you are invited in as an "expert". Put another way, unsolicited advice is unwelcome. 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a se…

[flagged]

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#199

Post by js2 » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 9:21 PM UTC

I feel like this is a variation on, or perhaps an elaboration of, "You can't tell people anything":

> What’s going on is that without some kind of direct experience to use as a touchstone, people don’t have the context that gives them a place in their minds to put the things you are telling them. The things you say often don’t stick, and the few things that do stick are often distorted. Also, most people aren’t very good at visualizing hypotheticals, at imagining what something they haven’t experienced might be like, or even what something they have experienced might be like if it were somewhat different.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23617188

http://habitatchronicles.com/2004/04/you-cant-tell-people-an...

Re: Why doesn't advice work?

#200

Post by Swizec » Tue, Jul 30, 2024, 9:23 PM UTC

slim wrote: post #198

efitz wrote: post #183

Hard lessons I've learned: 1. It doesn't matter what your title is, how much expert education, training, or experience you have, or even what hard lessons that you have learned: you are not an "expert" in an area unless you are invited in as an "expert". Put another way, unsolicited advice is unwelcome. 2. Smart people want to solve their own problems. Don't offer solutions. No one will feel empowered or much of a se…

[flagged]

> implying your spouse is not a smart person

My spouse is a smart person. But she cares about computers about as much as I care about how billion dollar corporate partnerships are made. She just wants her computer to work and I just want my credit card to get discounts.