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Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

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Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#101

It's an elegant solution. In 1998, as a freshman in college, we kicked a lot of ass on Tribes. By my sophomore year, the hacks had completely ruined the game. Frankly, it inspired one of my teammates to go into CS so that he could "hack back."

Are you referring to skiing? Tribes is an interesting example of a "hack" that completely re-invents the game (in most people's opinions, for the better).

For those not familiar, a bit of gaming history: Tribes is a FPS where the players have jetpacks and can fly around in the air. The jetpacks have limited energy, so players ended up having to spend a lot of time on the ground too. One particularly innovative aspects of Tribes was it's expansive maps. It was like a Battlefield game, but 5 years earlier. By only running and jetting, it could take minutes to get across a map, which is important considering the primary objective of the game was to move the opposing team's flag from side of the map to your team's side.

The hack was: players discovered that jumping at the instant the player lands on downhill surface caused them to accelerate in the downhill direction. Mashing repeatedly on the jump key going down a large hill would cause the player to accelerate all the way down the hill, as if there was no friction with the ground (hence "skiing"). Someone wrote a script that automated this act so all a player had to do was hold down the jump button instead of pressing it repeatedly.

This bug completely re-invented the game into something no one imagined it would be. Many players embraced it, I am sure some did not. It added a layer of complexity and made the game addictively fast paced (with skill you could now get across a map in seconds). The competitive community embraced the new style of play and the developers had no choice but to not patch the bug. This bug arguably became the defining gameplay aspect of Tribes.

The lesson? As mentioned here many times, the users are what make your product special. Sometimes they will invent uses for it you never imagined :)

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#102
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The approach you have suggested is actually very similar to what is used in the THQ game "Supreme Commander". In this case they use a fairly P2P architecture and have clients exchange hashes of the game graph every so often and check that they match. The problem with this is that the game needs to be fully deterministic and you'd be surprised how many games use random numbers to help determine outcomes like damage et…

As gms7777 points out, for the RNG, surely you can just share seeds? Your comment about the differences in how CPUs deal with floats is very interesting. I found the following interesting comment, from a GPG employee, talking about how they take care to ensure their float math is deterministic: "I work at Gas Powered Games and i can tell you first hand that floating point math is deterministic. You just need the same…

> floating point math is deterministic.

This is news? Isn't this the entire point of the IEEE754 standard, to save us from the days when programs that were well-conditioned on a VAX would become numerically unstable on a Cray?

'Cray instability' sounds like a Star Trek episode but it is apparently something that could happen.

http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/c/crayinstability.html

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#103
post #81

> we're a bit intrigued by the potential for the "Cheaters Pool" to evolve into a new mode of play that some players might actually prefer. Unregulated cheats and hacks led a friend and I to inadvertently invent a proto-minecraft over a decade ago. Around 1998, I was playing Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight when I started to experience cheats and hacks. Someone taught me how to do it, which was incredibly easy (each weapon…

Hahaha...that's great, Jedi Knight was my first real exposure to programming. Great times trying to make more and more sophisticated modifications of the game files...either legitly (custom levels, mods) and to use in unsuspecting multiplayer games on MSN Gaming Zone. I remember some members of the modding community ending up becoming serious level designers or game developers. You could actually make more complicate…

> I remember some members of the modding community ending up becoming serious level designers or game developers.

I was one of them. COG scripting was my intro to game modding. I'd been writing small games until that point, but COG made the game a platform to develop for and that was different to anything I'd seen before.

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#104

I remember the old days of Counterstrike and the infamous "myg0t" clan who would enter CS servers and use things like wallhacks and aimbots as well as excessive deliberate teamkilling. After they had got themselves banned from just about every server out there they launched their own "anything goes" server which could be actually be a fun experience to play on. Another interesting thing I remember from the CS days wa…

Jiggy I honestly think I remember you especially if you played under this exact name. Anyways I was on the other side as a core myg0t member for a while. It was fun, and why I started programming.

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#105
post #104

I remember the old days of Counterstrike and the infamous "myg0t" clan who would enter CS servers and use things like wallhacks and aimbots as well as excessive deliberate teamkilling. After they had got themselves banned from just about every server out there they launched their own "anything goes" server which could be actually be a fun experience to play on. Another interesting thing I remember from the CS days wa…

Jiggy I honestly think I remember you especially if you played under this exact name. Anyways I was on the other side as a core myg0t member for a while. It was fun, and why I started programming.

I take that back as my dyslexia kicked in. I knew. Jiggy2001

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#106
post #73

> we're a bit intrigued by the potential for the "Cheaters Pool" to evolve into a new mode of play that some players might actually prefer. Unregulated cheats and hacks led a friend and I to inadvertently invent a proto-minecraft over a decade ago. Around 1998, I was playing Dark Forces 2: Jedi Knight when I started to experience cheats and hacks. Someone taught me how to do it, which was incredibly easy (each weapon…

I made blaster rifles that shot destructions, but never realized you could shoot map features. That sounds like the potential for interesting fps: remake the map as you go.

In 1999 the Wheel Of Time game with it's Citadel mode was an early example of this. The original design was much more open-ended -- production realities meant that the end result was CTF with a 2 minute period at the start to setup traps in your home base.

See: http://www.worch.com/portfolio/wot/ for a description of the planned vs implemented Citadel mode.

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#107
> It's as if Major League Baseball suddenly opened up a second, parallel league that allows players to use performance-enhancing drugs and teams to use an ultra-precise pitching machine that throws nothing but 120mph fastballs to the corners of the plate. The games might end up as an unwatchable mess, but they'd likely attract plenty of fans and players who want to see just how far the "baseball" experience can go.

Sounds like a blurb to an awesome dystopian libertarian science fiction novel.

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#108
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As gms7777 points out, for the RNG, surely you can just share seeds? Your comment about the differences in how CPUs deal with floats is very interesting. I found the following interesting comment, from a GPG employee, talking about how they take care to ensure their float math is deterministic: "I work at Gas Powered Games and i can tell you first hand that floating point math is deterministic. You just need the same…

> floating point math is deterministic. This is news? Isn't this the entire point of the IEEE754 standard, to save us from the days when programs that were well-conditioned on a VAX would become numerically unstable on a Cray? 'Cray instability' sounds like a Star Trek episode but it is apparently something that could happen. http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/c/crayinstability.html

Depends on compiler options. x86 floating point is 80-bit internally, but 64-bit in memory. Compile the same function with different optimization, for a different CPU, or whatever and get different answers. For gcc, the answer is to use -ffloat-store. But you have to remember to use it.

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#109
post #107

> It's as if Major League Baseball suddenly opened up a second, parallel league that allows players to use performance-enhancing drugs and teams to use an ultra-precise pitching machine that throws nothing but 120mph fastballs to the corners of the plate. The games might end up as an unwatchable mess, but they'd likely attract plenty of fans and players who want to see just how far the "baseball" experience can go. S…

I'm pretty sure there's something similar mentioned in one of the Red Dwarf novels (with the experience ending in the use of genetically engineered players).

Re: Rockstar condemns Max Payne 3 cheaters to play only against each other

#110
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of it was not just shooting skill. Most new players tended to make a lot of the same predictable mistakes, for example standing close together in big groups at the same chokepoints in the map each time so that they could all be blinded by a flashbang. Also they didn't use walk effectively so would make a lot of noise. CS was also one of the first popular games where weapon recoil was modelled and new players wo…

Though in CS recoil could be predicted and controlled. I had a friend who spent literally hundreds of hours spraying an AK at a wall on an empty server in order to practice incredibly fast and precise mouse corrections. He was of course one of those often banned, since he was able to shoot at full auto without suffering recoil. I remember playing with him; his handle was kylyk, so I went with kylyks_meatshield.

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