Live data from Hacker News

The New Internet

tailscale.com

201–210 of 315 posts

Re: The New Internet

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, worse, incentivized to require users to use a "coordination server" which helps with the NAT and firewall traversal problem by being something you can reach from outbound-only clients. There's a lot of verbiage there, but the general idea seems to be that Tailscale sits at the middle of this as the means by which machines find each other. There are other ways to do that. There are dynamic DNS schemes, so you can…

How is trusting a dynamic DNS provider different than trusting Tailscale's coordination nodes?

  Competition
  Jurisdiction
  Resilience
  Biodiversity

Re: The New Internet

#202

As I've been deliberately moving toward self-hosted computing, under my control, on my home network , I've had a feeling more and more that we're on the cusp of something transformative... For those who want it and those who care. There's an ecosystem of mostly FOSS software now designed to run on a home network and replace big, centralized, cloud providers. That software is right on the edge of being easy enough for…

> But it is possible that every extended family will have at least one member who can run a server That's as may be; but many, many people have no access to an "extended family". And extended families are not necessarily warm, safe spaces where everyone trusts everyone else; extended families are more likely to be "broken" than nuclear families.

> And extended families are not necessarily warm, safe spaces where everyone trusts everyone else; extended families are more likely to be "broken" than nuclear families.

It is a good thing to promote and advance privacy, security, and freedom to isolated, atomized individuals; but it is important for all of humanity to promote and advance those same ideals to extended families. People who have no access to an extended family will ultimately either join a different one or disappear into the mists of ages past. In 100 years, the Earth will be populated mostly by the descendants of people in extended families today, however imperfect or even broken those extended families may be. If those people today don't see privacy, security, and freedom as both possible and worthy, their descendants may not value or even possess any of those ideals.

Re: The New Internet

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is a poor analogy. Historically there is a significant cost to making bad cars with frequent repair needs.

As somebody working in the modern automotive field I would like to disagree. The only incentive for car manufacturers is price point vs warranty period, after that you’re on your own. “Durability and “reliability” are no longer selling points for any automaker.

Re: The New Internet

#204

As I've been deliberately moving toward self-hosted computing, under my control, on my home network , I've had a feeling more and more that we're on the cusp of something transformative... For those who want it and those who care. There's an ecosystem of mostly FOSS software now designed to run on a home network and replace big, centralized, cloud providers. That software is right on the edge of being easy enough for…

>at least one member who can run a server

It may be highly unlogical, but maybe by shooting for zero it would be possible to bat 1000?

I do everything it takes so that the "extended family" site just works after I leave, as long as the "operator" can keep track of their USB sticks.

Scrap PCs being used as media servers have no internal drive.

Boots to the stick containing the server app.

Accesses media on a second stick containing the files.

Hotplug the media stick to emulate game-cartridge/VCR-cassette convenience.

Upon server failure or massive update, replace that particular stick with a backup or later version, or in the worst case get another scrap PC.

I know, easier said than done :/

Re: The New Internet

#205

As I've been deliberately moving toward self-hosted computing, under my control, on my home network , I've had a feeling more and more that we're on the cusp of something transformative... For those who want it and those who care. There's an ecosystem of mostly FOSS software now designed to run on a home network and replace big, centralized, cloud providers. That software is right on the edge of being easy enough for…

>at least one member who can run a server It may be highly unlogical, but maybe by shooting for zero it would be possible to bat 1000? I do everything it takes so that the "extended family" site just works after I leave, as long as the "operator" can keep track of their USB sticks. Scrap PCs being used as media servers have no internal drive. Boots to the stick containing the server app. Accesses media on a second st…

A medieval castle could be defended by surprisingly few people, but not by zero people. And a castle full of people who don't know how to fortify and maintain its defenses eventually becomes someone else's castle.

Aiming for zero required sysadmins in the short term after your own passing, I think the computers you leave behind will run into a similar case of the same general problem in the long term: there's no such thing as an entropy proof system. Castle walls erode and weapons rust if there are no skilled people to maintain them. Computer components slowly break down due to ordinary wear and tear. Software configurations become obsolete and unable to talk with other software, and become less secure as vulnerabilities are discovered over time. If there are no skilled people at all to maintain a familial network-citadel, it will eventually break down and fall into disuse.

Re: The New Internet

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a poor analogy. Historically there is a significant cost to making bad cars with frequent repair needs.

As somebody working in the modern automotive field I would like to disagree. The only incentive for car manufacturers is price point vs warranty period, after that you’re on your own. “Durability and “reliability” are no longer selling points for any automaker.

As someone not in the field, do you believe there is a true, objective, statistically valid way to tell which manufacturers (or which specific models) are more durable than others? All I see are consumer surveys, JD Power (more surveys), etc which, like most surveys, have wide error margins, and overall seem rather anecdote-based, and don't necessarily account for different stresses placed on the car based on driving style, diligence of maintenance, climate, etc.

Re: The New Internet

#207
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who was stopping anyone from doing it then, and who is stopping anyone from doing it now? The folks who either (a) got in early on the IPv4 address land rush (especially the Western developed countries), or (b) with buckets of money who buy addresses. If you're India, there probably weren't enough IPv4 address in the first place to handle your population, so you're doing IPv6: * https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/…

There is another reason: the addresses are long and impossible to remember and hard to type. I always bring this up and it’s always dismissed because tech people continue to dismiss usability concerns. Even “small” usability differences can have a huge effect on adoption.

Also, NAT is desirable for security/network isolation reasons, and having no distinction between a local IP and a public IP has a lot of disadvantages.

Yes, there are ways to configure IPv6 to isolate subnets, separate local traffic from internet traffic, set up firewalls and DMZs, run local DNS, etc., but they're all more complicated to configure and administer than their IPv4 equivalents.

Re: The New Internet

#208
post #207
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another reason: the addresses are long and impossible to remember and hard to type. I always bring this up and it’s always dismissed because tech people continue to dismiss usability concerns. Even “small” usability differences can have a huge effect on adoption.

Also, NAT is desirable for security/network isolation reasons, and having no distinction between a local IP and a public IP has a lot of disadvantages. Yes, there are ways to configure IPv6 to isolate subnets, separate local traffic from internet traffic, set up firewalls and DMZs, run local DNS, etc., but they're all more complicated to configure and administer than their IPv4 equivalents.

> Also, NAT is desirable for security/network isolation reasons […]

This is security theatre. People have been saying that NAT is not a security feature for over a decade:

* https://blog.ipspace.net/2011/12/is-nat-security-feature/

but the message still has not sunk in. The "Zero Trust" paper was published by John Kindervag in 2010:

* https://media.paloaltonetworks.com/documents/Forrester-No-Mo...

Most modern attacks start from a compromised internal host (e.g., from phishing), or through stolen credentials via a remote access method. The above is "castle-and-moat" thinking that tends to have weaker internal controls because it is thought the internal network is "hidden" from the dangerous outside network.

Set your firewall to default deny, then add a rule for allow outgoing connections, followed by only allow incoming connections if they are replies. For most machines (and networks), most of the time, this is what's needed: the above is applicable for both IPv6 and IPv4 (with or without NAT).

The protection comes from filtering (generally) and stateful packet inspection, not from hiding addresses.

> […] and having no distinction between a local IP and a public IP has a lot of disadvantages.

Just because something has a global addresses does not mean global reachability (see default deny above). Further you can layout your IPv6 address plan so that you can tell at a glance if hosts are externally accessible. Using a /48 a basis, you break out sixteen /52s, numbered $PREFIX:[0-f]000::/52.

To make it easier to remember what is externally accessible, you put all of those hosts in $PREFIX:e000::/52, where e stands for external. That /52 can then be broken down into:

* sixteen /56s

* 256 /60s

* 4096 /64s

or any combination thereof. See Figure A-5 for various ways to slice and dice:

* https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/ipv6-address-planning/9...

Everything in $PREFIX:[0-d,f]000::/52 is not externally reachable.

Re: The New Internet

#209
post #207
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another reason: the addresses are long and impossible to remember and hard to type. I always bring this up and it’s always dismissed because tech people continue to dismiss usability concerns. Even “small” usability differences can have a huge effect on adoption.

Also, NAT is desirable for security/network isolation reasons, and having no distinction between a local IP and a public IP has a lot of disadvantages. Yes, there are ways to configure IPv6 to isolate subnets, separate local traffic from internet traffic, set up firewalls and DMZs, run local DNS, etc., but they're all more complicated to configure and administer than their IPv4 equivalents.

> NAT is desirable for security/network isolation reasons

For the love of expletive this mistaken belief needs to have died yesterday. NAT boxes help primarily because they also contain a firewall. But most of 2024's network security problems originate from the devices behind your firewall getting exploited through their on requests, not some random shit connecting from the outside. (Yes, that does still happen, so you keep your firewall.)

> no distinction between a local IP and a public IP

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unique_local_address

Re: The New Internet

#210
post #57

The eternal problem with companies like Tailscale (and Cloudflare, Google, etc. etc.) is that, by solving a problem with the modern internet which the internet should have been designed to solve by itself, like simple end-to-end secure connectivity, Tailscale becomes incentivized to keep the problem . What the internet would need is something like IPv6 with automatic encryption via IPsec, with PKI provided by DNSSEC.…

So far as I’m aware, TailScale has been at all times a good actor. I have no problem criticizing tech companies, but I try to wait until they behave badly.

> I have no problem criticizing tech companies, but I try to wait until they behave badly.

I'd rather not wait until they have a (quasi-)monopoly on something though. Twitter was great until…

Post reply on HN