PHP: the quiet powerhouse • Hacker News Board

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#21

Post by hoopscity » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

I think people are comparing apples to oranges. Ruby on Rails is as some have stated, a framework, much like Zend or cake or CodeIgniter.

I think the author is spot on in this post. PHP is not without its warts, but as a programming language for web development, it is scalabe, reliable and robust.

Can you perhaps do things faster or more elegantly in other languages? Sure, but writing good clean code is really in the hands of the developer. I can do everything in python because its written in python doesn't mean that that code is going to be designed well or scale well.

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#22

Post by raquo » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:08 PM UTC

[off-topic] If PHP and Javascript are the only programming languages you know, you really should experiment with at least one or two others. It comes easier than expected. For example, check out http://www.diveintopython.net/toc/index.html. You can't know what you're missing out on until you try something new.

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#23

Post by techiferous » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:10 PM UTC

If you are just starting out as a web developer and aren't planning on changing careers anytime soon, the #1 language you should learn is JavaScript. It, or languages that compile to it, will still be in fashion in 5 or even 10 years. That's because the web is shifting to thick clients, and JavaScript is the only choice in browsers. JavaScript is also finding its way into server-side code (Node.js).

"I think PHP is the perfect language for beginning web development for two reasons: Direct HTML embedding."

Server-side view rendering is on its way out. So this is not a real advantage.

"I find it more than a little strange that PHP is simultaneously (a) out of fashion, and yet (b) absolutely everywhere."

This is simply how technologies rise and fall. By the time a technology is ubiquitous, the original problems it solved have changed and new solutions are being created. Just because you have a bunch of legacy code running lots of web apps doesn't mean it's the future--it means it's the past.

Also, why pick a language that pays poorly? Ruby is by no means inferior to PHP, and you will get paid more per hour to program in Ruby.

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#24

Post by gnaritas » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:15 PM UTC

techiferous wrote: post #23

If you are just starting out as a web developer and aren't planning on changing careers anytime soon, the #1 language you should learn is JavaScript. It, or languages that compile to it, will still be in fashion in 5 or even 10 years. That's because the web is shifting to thick clients, and JavaScript is the only choice in browsers. JavaScript is also finding its way into server-side code (Node.js). "I think PHP is t…

> Server-side view rendering is on its way out. So this is not a real advantage.

No it isn't, client side view rendering is just experiencing a faddish phase; it'll fade. It'll never overtake server side rendering on the web.

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#25

Post by jonathansizz » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:16 PM UTC

raquo wrote: post #22

[off-topic] If PHP and Javascript are the only programming languages you know, you really should experiment with at least one or two others. It comes easier than expected. For example, check out http://www.diveintopython.net/toc/index.html . You can't know what you're missing out on until you try something new.

But if you already know PHP and Javascript, why not try branching out a bit instead of learning Python, which is very similar overall? How about a lispy language like Racket, or a statically typed functional language like OCaml, or a 'big' mainstream applications language like Java?

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#26

Post by duskwuff » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:16 PM UTC

testing12341234 wrote: post #15

http://me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-de... 9600+ generally concise words on many, but not all, of the issues with PHP. As a summary, PHP isn't "out of fashion" as much as people are tired of continuously being misled and abused by their language of choice.

On that note, a physical metaphor for PHP which that post inspired:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/raindrift/7095238893/in/set-721...

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#27

Post by lucperkins » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:18 PM UTC

techiferous wrote: post #23

If you are just starting out as a web developer and aren't planning on changing careers anytime soon, the #1 language you should learn is JavaScript. It, or languages that compile to it, will still be in fashion in 5 or even 10 years. That's because the web is shifting to thick clients, and JavaScript is the only choice in browsers. JavaScript is also finding its way into server-side code (Node.js). "I think PHP is t…

I think you're right about a lot of things. Things like Backbone (which I wrote about at http://blog.appfog.com/putting-some-mvc-meat-into-your-app-b...) will make recourse to the back end more and more selective as time goes by. JavaScript is indeed quite a force, and as far as I can tell that will stop only when browsers start reading other languages directly (which is not completely unthinkable, but also not really on the horizon).

My point was not directed so much against JavaScript as against the notion that PHP is simply an anachronism.

There's also nothing stopping you from using lots and lots of front-end JavaScript in a PHP-driven context...

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#28

Post by techiferous » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:19 PM UTC

gnaritas wrote: post #24

techiferous wrote: post #23

If you are just starting out as a web developer and aren't planning on changing careers anytime soon, the #1 language you should learn is JavaScript. It, or languages that compile to it, will still be in fashion in 5 or even 10 years. That's because the web is shifting to thick clients, and JavaScript is the only choice in browsers. JavaScript is also finding its way into server-side code (Node.js). "I think PHP is t…

> Server-side view rendering is on its way out. So this is not a real advantage. No it isn't, client side view rendering is just experiencing a faddish phase; it'll fade. It'll never overtake server side rendering on the web.

It's not a fad. It's driven by the increasing growth of mobile devices ( see http://www.digitalbuzzblog.com/2011-mobile-statistics-stats-... )

The Internet is becoming more ubiquitous. Being "on the Internet" will mean less and less being in front of your computer. The proliferation of devices you can access a web app from is increasing (smartphones, tablets, more coming in the future) so it is becoming more useful for web apps to be like a "smart database in the cloud" and for the view logic and code to be on the client.

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#29

Post by lucperkins » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:20 PM UTC

hoopscity wrote: post #21

I think people are comparing apples to oranges. Ruby on Rails is as some have stated, a framework, much like Zend or cake or CodeIgniter. I think the author is spot on in this post. PHP is not without its warts, but as a programming language for web development, it is scalabe, reliable and robust. Can you perhaps do things faster or more elegantly in other languages? Sure, but writing good clean code is really in the…

"Scalable, reliable and robust." Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks.

Re: PHP: the quiet powerhouse

#30

Post by hoopscity » Wed, Jun 13, 2012, 10:20 PM UTC

gnaritas wrote: post #24

techiferous wrote: post #23

If you are just starting out as a web developer and aren't planning on changing careers anytime soon, the #1 language you should learn is JavaScript. It, or languages that compile to it, will still be in fashion in 5 or even 10 years. That's because the web is shifting to thick clients, and JavaScript is the only choice in browsers. JavaScript is also finding its way into server-side code (Node.js). "I think PHP is t…

> Server-side view rendering is on its way out. So this is not a real advantage. No it isn't, client side view rendering is just experiencing a faddish phase; it'll fade. It'll never overtake server side rendering on the web.

there is a place for both. There are certain things that make sense for server side rendering. If I have a blog, why render it on client side, its evergreen content... makes sense for the server to deliver the static content. For web apps, there is a lot of value to client side rendering.