Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#591

Post by apwell23 » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 2:20 PM UTC

no_wizard wrote: post #191

pembrook wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is against regulation that disfavors large incumbents to support competition instead. You'll struggle to find people who are against the Digital Markets Act for this reason. It literally only targets the potential monopolists. However, virtually every other piece of regulation does the opposite. Regulation usually gets trotted out after the downside of doing [new innovation] is experienced. This always happens…

Specifically with AI I don’t want to experience the downside of innovation before we regulate because of how wide spread its use already is, and it’s problems have already become apparent. For example, it’s being used to job screen applicants even though we have proven that AI models still suffer from thing like racial bias. Companies don’t disclose how their models are trained to negate bias or anything like that ei…

> it’s being used to job screen applicants

Any idea what software is being used ?

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#592

Post by rdm_blackhole » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 2:21 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #219

betaby wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Otherwise businesses have no ability to plan for the future and investment stops. And then there is a 'chat control' every year pushed relentlessly. Thus no, not at all. EU doesn't value citizens privacy.

The EU commission (made of elected statesmen from all over the EU) is free to propose as many laws as it wants, but these things never have broad appeal and do not pass parliament (the MEPs we directly elect). Chat control keeps being proposed by the same Swedish politician, and she will continue to do so and she will continue to fail- because politicians in the EU are already aware its stupid.

You are wrong, most MEPs know that this will break encryption and are more than happy to go for the ride because they have exempted themselves from such regulation. Surveillance for thee not for me.

Chat control is not just the love child from the Swedish politician, it is being pushed by US surveillance companies that convinced the commission members that CP can be detected and stopped only if Europol has access to all your messages, emails, photos and videos until the end of time without having any recourse as to what it will be used for or by whom it will be viewed.

Then there is also Chat Control V1 which is currently extended each year despite being a temporary measure supposedly. Then there is also the data retention directive which everyone knows was illegal to start with and took 10 years to be overturned.

The fact that people still associate EU with privacy is a joke. The EU wants your data just like Meta and Apple or Google. At least Meta is not trying to gaslight me into thinking that giving my data is to save the children or some other complete BS reason.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#593

Post by bitcharmer » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 2:31 PM UTC

Destiner wrote: post #512

autoexec wrote: post #180

The EU is free to pass laws preventing gatekeepers and insisting on interoperability requirements and Apple is free to refuse to do that and not offer their non-competitive gatekeeping products in the EU. There's zero reason to think that this will mean the EU won't have a tech market. It just won't have one that includes Apple products which refuse to follow the law. Seems like a massive win for the EU, and because…

how it’s a win if i can’t use apple products?

It's funny how you already answered your own question

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#594

Post by Xen9 » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 2:45 PM UTC

pembrook wrote: post #124

KaiserPro wrote: post #88

A company that provides a phone service (mobile or other) has to conform to a large amount of regulatory red tape. Why? because either a company before tried to monopolise the entire country, or they killed someone. Now, large tech companies haven't wholesale killed people (unlike say tobacco, or talc powder, 3M and half of their solvents, weed killer, most car makers, etc etc) but they have been trying desperately t…

Nobody is against regulation that disfavors large incumbents to support competition instead. You'll struggle to find people who are against the Digital Markets Act for this reason. It literally only targets the potential monopolists. However, virtually every other piece of regulation does the opposite. Regulation usually gets trotted out after the downside of doing [new innovation] is experienced. This always happens…

Makes no economical sense, but arguably the right response to not only AI, but every thing.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#595

Post by dijit » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 2:47 PM UTC

carlosjobim wrote: post #363

dijit wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything that gets close gets bought or killed by non-european giants. Tencent buys basically all game companies, microsoft buys basically all communication companies (skype, nokia come to mind), google buys basically everything. Even ARM is owned by Softbank after starting out in the UK. The Automotive industry and ASML are just about the only things resistant to this because they're so large already; Automotive act…

They can't buy anything unless Europeans are willing to sell.

Vivendi and Tencent attempting to buy Ubisoft via shares might be one thing in living memory that disagrees.

If you are publicly traded there is little you can do to prevent people buying shares - though you are right that people sell privately held companies a little too often.

Ubisoft in particular created many poison pills to prevent companies getting too dug in, however that didn’t prevent anything except a total buyout. Their board is stacked with Microsoft and Tencent which causes weird, extremely harmful, decision making in the org.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#596

Post by koonsolo » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 2:49 PM UTC

arp242 wrote: post #588

koonsolo wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we (EU) are not allowed to have high end AI chips strapped on quadcopters and Russia is, well, good luck to EU.

A (very hypothetical) war is not going to be won by AI chips and quadcopters. Furthermore all of this applies to consumer tech, not military tech. Consumers are not allowed to have military drones, attack fighters, and tanks either.

You don't seem to know what is currently being used in Ukraine right now.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#597

Post by dijit » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 2:53 PM UTC

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #592

dijit wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU commission (made of elected statesmen from all over the EU) is free to propose as many laws as it wants, but these things never have broad appeal and do not pass parliament (the MEPs we directly elect). Chat control keeps being proposed by the same Swedish politician, and she will continue to do so and she will continue to fail- because politicians in the EU are already aware its stupid.

You are wrong, most MEPs know that this will break encryption and are more than happy to go for the ride because they have exempted themselves from such regulation. Surveillance for thee not for me. Chat control is not just the love child from the Swedish politician, it is being pushed by US surveillance companies that convinced the commission members that CP can be detected and stopped only if Europol has access to…

How do you reason your thinking with the fact that the EU created GDPR?

The EU laws typically fall on the side of promoting privacy and protecting citizens against large multinational organisations (criminal and legitimate).

There is a need for greater powers to prevent crime, but nobody is going to weaken privacy for it. The most likely outcome is a centralised interpol-esque database to track and track suspects more quickly. Right now its very easy for criminals to just change hosting region and the investigating national police have no jurisdiction to do anything. It’s a large issue.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#598

Post by wkat4242 » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 2:58 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #316

wkat4242 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Surely you've seen enough of the free market to know that this is baloney. The instant that the walled garden is gone abusive apps (Facebook et al) will start ushering users away from it into their own, abusive paths as the only way to install. Nah. Users don't grok sideloading. Even on android where it's always been possible, it's a fringe phenomenon. And every app is on Google Play. In fact it basically killed Hu…

First and most importantly: you're imagining a sideloading method that is much less first-class than that the EU wants to impose. Even aside from that, you can't compare the Play Store to Apple's because the Play Store is a thousand times less restrictive. There's a reason why people are constantly complaining about the App Store and (aside from Epic) never the Play Store. Apple has a lot of restrictions, and while s…

> First and most importantly: you're imagining a sideloading method that is much less first-class than that the EU wants to impose.

I'm not "imagining" anything. This is the status quo on Android and even setting one switch to "allow installations from this source" (one that already pops up automatically no less!) already freaks users out.

And the EU is fine with this. They didn't specify any technical implementation to Apple so I'm sure they will make it as scary as they can.

> Even aside from that, you can't compare the Play Store to Apple's because the Play Store is a thousand times less restrictive.

Apple has seen a lot of stuff slip by the reviewers too, and it's pretty much a hit and miss based on who you get. Just like with Google.

I'm sure a lot more app providers would love to get out from under Apple's heavy hand but in practice this is just wishful thinking. The tiny amount of friction there is on Android is more than enough for people not to bother.

> There's a reason why people are constantly complaining about the App Store and (aside from Epic) never the Play Store. Apple has a lot of restrictions, and while some of them are there to extract more money most are there to protect their customers.

We'll have to differ in opinion on that. I feel like most of the restrictions are there to protect their cash cow which is the app store.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#599

Post by rdm_blackhole » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 3:15 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #597

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong, most MEPs know that this will break encryption and are more than happy to go for the ride because they have exempted themselves from such regulation. Surveillance for thee not for me. Chat control is not just the love child from the Swedish politician, it is being pushed by US surveillance companies that convinced the commission members that CP can be detected and stopped only if Europol has access to…

How do you reason your thinking with the fact that the EU created GDPR? The EU laws typically fall on the side of promoting privacy and protecting citizens against large multinational organisations (criminal and legitimate). There is a need for greater powers to prevent crime, but nobody is going to weaken privacy for it. The most likely outcome is a centralised interpol-esque database to track and track suspects mor…

That is not what Chat control is. Chat Control is live analysis of all your messages/emails/photos and videos.

Chat Control breaks encryption because it wants to snoop on the messages/photos before being encrypted EtoE by the messaging providers.

There is no need for greater powers to prevent crime. It has been determined that there isn't enough funding to investigate the crimes reported already and now this system is supposed to report even more crime at the price of my privacy.

I could see potentially a system where known suspects are targeted specifically but in this case, everybody is a suspect. What happened to presumption of innocence?

The fact of the matter is that chat control is the digital Stasi, always listening to your conversations, analyzing your messages. God forbid the algorithm flags your innocent picture wrongly.

Is this the future we want?

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#600

Post by insane_dreamer » Sat, Jul 27, 2024, 3:23 PM UTC

Zpalmtree wrote: post #413

insane_dreamer wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s already happened in the US without regulation, little farms don’t stand a chance against giant agribusinesses which may not even be US owned (largest pork producer is owned by Chinese) . In fact regulation is probably preventing it from happening faster in the EU.

what are you talking about bro the US has tons of farming regulation haha

Fair point I was comparing US to EU.