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Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

foreignpolicy.com

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Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#301

Post by echoangle »

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #294
echoangle wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is apple impacted if Vision Pro fails? You think they care about the lost R&D cost? Or do you think others will leapfrog them in the VR/AR space?

This is the first product miss. And I don't know where Apple goes from here. Others will also leapfrog them is my instinct. Basically they are too big now and startups have a chance of beating both Google and Apple.

In my opinion, nothing is lost here. They will either put out new improved and cheaper versions until they get the interest they want, or wait for someone else to innovate and then copy it better, the apple way (TM). I don’t see a way where this is apples downfall until they continue to f it up again and again.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#302

Post by Nathanba »

jlaporte wrote: post #262

It’s interesting to observe how detached the discussion here is from the issues created for Europe due to the DMA. A majority of the comments here make the implicit assumption that the DMA is good because it will penalize big tech companies and force them to change business models in the EU. This is not what is happening or will happen. What’s really being destroyed by the DMA is Europe’s access to new technologies a…

I think the topic is hard to talk about because the EU is technically trying to do the right thing but reality often rewards the conquerors and the US, China etc. (aka the competitors) still believe in the right of tech conquest. They don't stop their companies from taking whatever they want whether it's properly licensed or not. So we are in a situation where the EU is dotting their i's and shaking hands in their moral superiority while not understanding that we have to compete with people who don't care if they steal something or rob you by force. It's similar in all these other areas like the DMA and GDPR... we are competing with markets who simply don't care that they are violating people's privacy and it's more profitable to rob people and sell their stuff. The EU in my opinion has to create regulations that understand this reality and create an even stronger wall for european companies. So please go create these regulations, fine.. but understand that you should make unfair exceptions for european companies.

Let european companies that are situated here violate these regulations and make this explicit: As long as the US and China do not have equivalent regulations, EU companies are explicitly allowed to steal US and chinese content. Yes really, make that very explicit. Make laws with the full understanding of what reality we are living in. We are dealing with competitors who will take our last shirt by force, not friends and "partners" as they so lovingly put it in their press releases.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#303

Post by bamboozled »

shermantanktop wrote: post #254
bamboozled wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How important “big tech” though? Honestly ? It’s even an insidious sounding name. Big tech has caused a lot of problems for society. Echo chambers on social media, monopolistic behaviour, teen depression and addiction. We want the tech, without the grifting.

Are they separable? Teens in particular appear to be bad for each other's mental health. Connectivity increases that effect, anonymity makes it worse, likes and other status features makes it worse still. Not sure where you draw a line between not quite bad enough and too bad.

It doesn’t help there are algorithms designed to keep them looking at things that aren’t great for them to be looking at though does it. Can you provide an example in the past wheee this has existed before outside of big tech ?

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#304

Post by failuser »

pelorat wrote: post #159
skywhopper wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have a weird definition of “terrible”. How much EU taxes are being paid by Apple, Meta, Google, etc?

We pay more than enough taxes in Europe.

I thought that tech companies working in Europe take advantage of Irish/Dutch laws and skip taxes almost entirely. Is that outdated?

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#305

Post by notimetorelax »

Nathanba wrote: post #269
fruit2020 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not always good for the end user. Now I have to go to google maps manually because it’s most of the time no longer integrated with google search

what exactly prevents them from giving me a dropdown with links to apple maps, kagi maps, bing maps and google maps and my choice gets saved to my google account as the default? Instead all they show me is a useless javascript map which is still google maps but I cant do anything useful on it and it's super frustrating trying to get to a map for a place search

To play devils advocate - it costs money to integrate with all the competing map providers and to display them properly on the site. You could think of a plug in approach where map providers integrate themselves, still someone needs to maintain that plug in infra. Nothing is free.

And it’s the same story for any kind of service that’s subject to DMA.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#306

Post by bamboozled »

dingnuts wrote: post #283
bamboozled wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He means the network effects of it. Facebook has locked people in via Facebook groups, Instagram messenger and such. So many people are in it’s if you don’t have it, it’s hard to be part of certain communities. I deleted my Facebook like ten years ago, I missed out on a a LOT of party invites.

people just text me to invite me to things. I don't want to be invited to parties where someone just invites everyone they know on Facebook. if they want me there, they can ask me directly. My social life has not significantly changed since I quit Facebook. if you have good friends, they will find you. if you don't.. why do you care about losing them?

Popular kids don’t care about that.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#307

Post by FireBeyond »

dwaite wrote: post #265
sangnoir wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple's walled garden produces a lot of real benefits for its customers that are part of what make it successful, and dismantling their walled garden is going to harm consumers. What are those benefits, and why would they evaporate if Apple adds an "Install from other sources" toggle? If you want to exclusively benefit from Apple's discernment, keep that toggle off and stay in the walled garden.If the benefits are…

The App Store review provides protections which are not a technical protections. Earlier someone talked about the failing of allowing a $50 subscription flashlight app into the store (dunno if they’d be able to find a citation). This was a failing of the expected business controls. There’s nothing technical to even be done to prevent these sorts of abuses. One example from a while back was banning an internal Faceboo…

> Earlier someone talked about the failing of allowing a $50 subscription flashlight app into the store (dunno if they’d be able to find a citation). This was a failing of the expected business controls.

How about LassPass, then? That made it onto the AppStore despite being designed to make money and steal credentials.

Maybe not $50/month, though. I love one Apple apologist's remarks on that aspect:

> Instead, the scam LassPass app tries to steer you to creating a “pro” account subscription for $2/month, $10/year, or a $50 lifetime purchase. Those are actually low prices for a scam app — a lot of scammy apps try to charge like $10/week.

Emphasis mine. "Look, I know you got your credentials stolen, but at least you didn't also get scammed out of as much money as some other scammy apps!"

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#308

Post by mikem170 »

lolinder wrote: post #279
sangnoir wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple's walled garden produces a lot of real benefits for its customers that are part of what make it successful, and dismantling their walled garden is going to harm consumers. What are those benefits, and why would they evaporate if Apple adds an "Install from other sources" toggle? If you want to exclusively benefit from Apple's discernment, keep that toggle off and stay in the walled garden.If the benefits are…

> If the benefits are so great, then surely everyone will choose to stay in the walled garden. Surely you've seen enough of the free market to know that this is baloney. The instant that the walled garden is gone abusive apps (Facebook et al) will start ushering users away from it into their own, abusive paths as the only way to install. And once the big abusive apps have started the trend, the walled garden is effec…

You mentioned users leaving Apple for Facebook.

Does that change the garden for you? Can't users such as yourself remain in the Apple ecosystem? Do other users leaving affect you? Or Apple? Maybe they won't have as much cash?

Does Apple deserve the extra cash in perpetuity for being the first with the network effect? There might be a lot of better ideas out there, if they were given a chance, like Apple had back before them and Google took over the market.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#309

Post by lolinder »

mikem170 wrote: post #300
lolinder wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are storing people's private data and selling primary communication devices. To be clear, I think privacy laws like GDPR absolutely have a place for consumer protection. I just don't think the DMA does. Watching how the DMA applies to Apple, it feels far less about consumer protection than it does about businesses, and that's what makes me uncomfortable. The EU is in this case listening to complaints from a bu…

> complaints from a bunch of other businesses who do not have consumer interests at heart Apple (and other big tech companies) locking the competition out of the market, or buying them, hurts consumers. It robs them of other innovative choices. Having more choices and interoperability is generally good for consumers. If you stick with the Apple defaults how does this hurt you?

To clarify: I don't use Apple. I chose their competitors instead because I like the features offered by the competition better.

> If you stick with the Apple defaults how does this hurt you?

Because people won't be able to stick with the defaults. One of the first dominoes to fall if the EU gets its wishlist will be Facebook, which will put a version of its app that wouldn't pass Apple's review out through unofficial channels and strongly encourage or force users to switch to it. Once Facebook has paved the way many other companies that are similarly inclined to abuse their users will follow.

A walled garden with a wide-open back door is no walled garden at all, and the many Apple users who liked the garden are going to be cranky when they realize what tech lobbyists have done in the EU.

Re: Europe is in danger of regulating its tech market out of existence

#310

Post by ndriscoll »

DataDaemon wrote: post #6

Europe is a place to take social benefits; there is no tech, no innovation. It's better to sit on the couch and watch Netflix than start a business. There is too much risk, too many taxes, and too many regulations.

My impression is that many if not most KDE developers are in Europe. That's some of the most useful user-facing software that exists. Most big American "tech" has essentially no utility, and is built around mindless scrolling, spying, and ads.
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