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Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#11

Post by babarock »

eigenvector wrote: post #9

I don't mean to take away from Linus' achievement, nor to sound like RMS, but every time people refer to "the Linux operating system" it's misappropriating credit. They usually mean GNU/Linux and the kernel is only one piece of that. EDIT: Disregard this comment, the article has been edited removing references to Linux as an operating system.

You seem to imply that GNU userland tools are:

1. an inherent part of the Operating System.

2. the only way Linux can be used.

The first point is debatable. In academic circles (where Linus has spent a big part of his career), operating systems usually designate the kernel. In commercial products, the kernel by itself is not very useful, so you'd add a few userland utilities to your definition.

The second point is simply wrong. Busybox is a very widely used alternative to GNU, and Android, arguably the most successful mass consumption Linux system to date, has zero GNU tool.

As much as I appreciate GNU, the FSF and rms, this constant demand for credit is, too often, misplaced and above all, a bunch of misguided rhetoric.

Can't we simply be happy for an engineer who fully deserves the recognition he's getting?

Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#12

Post by eigenvector »

babarock wrote: post #11
eigenvector wrote: post #9

I don't mean to take away from Linus' achievement, nor to sound like RMS, but every time people refer to "the Linux operating system" it's misappropriating credit. They usually mean GNU/Linux and the kernel is only one piece of that. EDIT: Disregard this comment, the article has been edited removing references to Linux as an operating system.

You seem to imply that GNU userland tools are: 1. an inherent part of the Operating System. 2. the only way Linux can be used. The first point is debatable. In academic circles (where Linus has spent a big part of his career), operating systems usually designate the kernel. In commercial products, the kernel by itself is not very useful, so you'd add a few userland utilities to your definition. The second point is si…

I gave GNU as an example of one userland that is commonly conflated with Linux. As you note, there are others. The main point is - Linux is not an operating system and it is misleading and incorrect to refer to it as such.

RMS's shrill remarks about how Linus is "stealing" credit from the FSF are misguided. I try to maintain the distinction between kernel and OS primarily out of a desire to be accurate about how I describe an operating system. Android and Ubuntu are clearly different and describing both as "Linux" is not particularly helpful to anyone.

Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#13

Post by babarock »

dr42 wrote: post #8
cristianocd wrote: post #6

I really can't put in words how much I admire Linus! If you know Linux's history, met the community or if you've tried Linux... it's hard not to fall in love with it.

Isn't this really more the windowing environments and the driver support? Gone are the days when it was difficult to get a working UNIX installation, thanks to Linux, but as far as the kernel is concerned, I was happy with Solaris, NetBSD, HP-UX. Some might argue SE was a welcome addition, but for me it's the first thing I disable. I know there have been a large number of features added to the kernel over the years,…

I think Linux played an important role in providing a free and Open Source Unix at a time where the BSDs were fighting demons both internal (segregation of their community) and external (with all their lawsuits). Linux was the turning point between Unix being a very expensive commercial product, and a hobbyist tool for the wannabe hacker.

It also, and this may be a personal impression more than an absolute truth, was the Unix to play the most insistent role on the desktop. I, like many, got introduced to Unix through Linux (Ubuntu to be exact - the year was 2006). Sure I fell in love with Unix and quickly moved on to other distros/unices, but at the end of the day, I still believe that I, and a lot of people my age, only discovered Unix because somebody somewhere fought for the desktop, something neither Solaris nor HP-UX deemed "profitable" enough.

Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#14

Post by dr42 »

babarock wrote: post #13
dr42 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this really more the windowing environments and the driver support? Gone are the days when it was difficult to get a working UNIX installation, thanks to Linux, but as far as the kernel is concerned, I was happy with Solaris, NetBSD, HP-UX. Some might argue SE was a welcome addition, but for me it's the first thing I disable. I know there have been a large number of features added to the kernel over the years,…

I think Linux played an important role in providing a free and Open Source Unix at a time where the BSDs were fighting demons both internal (segregation of their community) and external (with all their lawsuits). Linux was the turning point between Unix being a very expensive commercial product, and a hobbyist tool for the wannabe hacker. It also, and this may be a personal impression more than an absolute truth, was…

I was using Unix long before Linux came along, and you're right it was the fork that pushed the most for the desktop. Even though today I am using it as my desktop that's really only because I write server software. I think the main thrust for Unix on the desktop was in fact OS/X, but among us geeks it has been Ubuntu. But that was really my point, it was the distros like RH and Ubuntu that put together something installable with a mostly workable window manager that most people associate with Linux, not the kernel.

While I am very much not taking anything away from the work that Linus has accomplished, my point was that much of the credit for today's Linux installations comes more from RedHat than anything Linux did in the kernel.

There indeed was the BSD wars, but most of the old timers that started their career with a flavor of Unix (for me, it was HP-UX on an HP9000), since then they have all been much of a muchness, varying only in their applicability to a given problem (including suitability to the desktop.)

I am reasonably sure that the number of Linux desktops is very small, nearly every practical use for Linux is running servers. I would wager that OSX dwarfs Linux in terms of unix-on-the-desktop comparisons.

Since history provides no A/B testing capabilities, it's very difficult to isolate the impact Linux has had. Would we today be all using some form of BSD, or maybe Solaris/Intel with ZFS. Who knows, but I am thankful to Linus for a number of things including his efforts to promote OSS.

Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#15

Post by swa14 »

babarock wrote: post #11
eigenvector wrote: post #9

I don't mean to take away from Linus' achievement, nor to sound like RMS, but every time people refer to "the Linux operating system" it's misappropriating credit. They usually mean GNU/Linux and the kernel is only one piece of that. EDIT: Disregard this comment, the article has been edited removing references to Linux as an operating system.

You seem to imply that GNU userland tools are: 1. an inherent part of the Operating System. 2. the only way Linux can be used. The first point is debatable. In academic circles (where Linus has spent a big part of his career), operating systems usually designate the kernel. In commercial products, the kernel by itself is not very useful, so you'd add a few userland utilities to your definition. The second point is si…

GNU's a little more than some userland tools thrown in for good measure. It is actually an operating system.

If you look at the posix spec, which defines what a real "unix" should have and how it should behave, there's a tremendous amount of libraries and little tools (like how, for example, 'sed' is mandatory). If you look at a barebones installed unix-like system, most of these utilities and libraries actually come from GNU. In these days of X and GUI-goodness, they don't seem very important anymore, but nevertheless, they are needed to be able to claim one has a full unix-like operating system.

As for credit hogging, a lot of work went into writing GNU, and most of it was not rockstar-programming like kernel work. Most of the people who wrote GNU wrote it with a specific reason. That those people make a plea to call it by a name that would acknowledge those reasons, is neither unreasonable nor overly burdensome, and most importantly, not mandatory. As such, I don't feel it's "misplaced", or a "bunch of misguided rhetoric".

>Can't we simply be happy for an engineer who fully deserves the recognition he's getting?

Of course, any money in Linus' pocket is well spent. His approach to online collaborative development advanced the entire industry! ( the kernel is, of course, a great achievement as well, just not quite as remarkable )

Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#17

Post by [deleted] »

eigenvector wrote: post #12
babarock wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to imply that GNU userland tools are: 1. an inherent part of the Operating System. 2. the only way Linux can be used. The first point is debatable. In academic circles (where Linus has spent a big part of his career), operating systems usually designate the kernel. In commercial products, the kernel by itself is not very useful, so you'd add a few userland utilities to your definition. The second point is si…

I gave GNU as an example of one userland that is commonly conflated with Linux. As you note, there are others. The main point is - Linux is not an operating system and it is misleading and incorrect to refer to it as such. RMS's shrill remarks about how Linus is "stealing" credit from the FSF are misguided. I try to maintain the distinction between kernel and OS primarily out of a desire to be accurate about how I de…

[deleted]

Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#18

Post by kamechan »

eigenvector wrote: post #12
babarock wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to imply that GNU userland tools are: 1. an inherent part of the Operating System. 2. the only way Linux can be used. The first point is debatable. In academic circles (where Linus has spent a big part of his career), operating systems usually designate the kernel. In commercial products, the kernel by itself is not very useful, so you'd add a few userland utilities to your definition. The second point is si…

I gave GNU as an example of one userland that is commonly conflated with Linux. As you note, there are others. The main point is - Linux is not an operating system and it is misleading and incorrect to refer to it as such. RMS's shrill remarks about how Linus is "stealing" credit from the FSF are misguided. I try to maintain the distinction between kernel and OS primarily out of a desire to be accurate about how I de…

> "Android and Ubuntu are clearly different and describing both as "Linux" is not particularly helpful to anyone."

except they both run on the Linux kernel, so it is, nevertheless, accurate.

personally, i think it is helpful. there seems to be an ongoing criticism of Linux that it hasn't made much progress as the basis for a desktop operating system. while that may be true, talking about Linux in relation to android helps raise awareness that there's another kernel out there not put out by apple or microsoft that's responsible for running a large percentage of mobile devices on the market.

as apple frequently states, we're now living in the "post pc era". who's to say that the desktop and mobile spaces won't continue to merge, at which point your "not particularly helpful to anyone" use of the word Linux to describe both will become more relevant.

indeed, ubuntu is already trying to push things in this direction. http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android

Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#19

Post by [deleted] »

eigenvector wrote: post #12
babarock wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to imply that GNU userland tools are: 1. an inherent part of the Operating System. 2. the only way Linux can be used. The first point is debatable. In academic circles (where Linus has spent a big part of his career), operating systems usually designate the kernel. In commercial products, the kernel by itself is not very useful, so you'd add a few userland utilities to your definition. The second point is si…

I gave GNU as an example of one userland that is commonly conflated with Linux. As you note, there are others. The main point is - Linux is not an operating system and it is misleading and incorrect to refer to it as such. RMS's shrill remarks about how Linus is "stealing" credit from the FSF are misguided. I try to maintain the distinction between kernel and OS primarily out of a desire to be accurate about how I de…

[deleted]

Re: Linux creator Linus Torvalds shares Millennium Technology Prize

#20

Post by entropy_ »

dr42 wrote: post #14
babarock wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Linux played an important role in providing a free and Open Source Unix at a time where the BSDs were fighting demons both internal (segregation of their community) and external (with all their lawsuits). Linux was the turning point between Unix being a very expensive commercial product, and a hobbyist tool for the wannabe hacker. It also, and this may be a personal impression more than an absolute truth, was…

I was using Unix long before Linux came along, and you're right it was the fork that pushed the most for the desktop. Even though today I am using it as my desktop that's really only because I write server software. I think the main thrust for Unix on the desktop was in fact OS/X, but among us geeks it has been Ubuntu. But that was really my point, it was the distros like RH and Ubuntu that put together something ins…

While it is true that OSX very probably accounts for more unix-on-the-desktop than linux, they are two very different desktop audiences.

While OSX is indeed a unix, it hides this so well that unless you know what you're looking for you would never use any of the things that most people mean when they refer to unix.

I write this on a iMac I use for developing iOS applications, but honestly, if I hadn't been using linux since 2006(Ubuntu, gentoo then arch for the past 2 years) I would never have learned the use of the command line(and tools such as find, sed, grep, etc...) just from using the mac.

For me, the switch to linux was mainly because I wanted an alternative to Windows(when I first heard about Vista) and I could definitely not afford a mac(I was a student at the time). I suspect that many a tinkerer/hacker has gone down this path. In fact, most linux users have met have had similar stories, while mac users have mostly been professionals and/or design/hipster-type people. I have not met a single programmer whose main unix learning experience has come from OSX while I've met tons that have learned from linux(and a few from other unices) even if they eventually ended up using OSX in their daily work.

As I said, this is all anecdotal, but I wouldn't be surprised if these trends were more general.

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