A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee • Hacker News Board

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#91

Post by Always42 » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 9:25 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #75

martinpw wrote: post #4

The decaf process seems expensive so you might expect the end result to cost more, but it never does. Which means either the producers are making less profit on decaf, or they are using lower quality beans. If the latter is true, which seems more likely, that might explain why decaf sometimes tastes less good, separately from the effect of the process itself on taste.

Boutique-roasted decaf coffee beans often are more expensive. But the logic also doesn't hold: it assumes coffee is being sold at or near the cost of its material inputs, and that's certainly not true. If you have a reasonable built-in margin for your coffee --- and boutique roasters certainly do --- it can be normal and rational to price irrespective of your cost basis. Customers are brand-loyal (especially if they…

I thought the means should be beans

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#92

Post by feyr » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 9:26 PM UTC

martinpw wrote: post #4

The decaf process seems expensive so you might expect the end result to cost more, but it never does. Which means either the producers are making less profit on decaf, or they are using lower quality beans. If the latter is true, which seems more likely, that might explain why decaf sometimes tastes less good, separately from the effect of the process itself on taste.

they either resell the caffeine for a profit themselves,

or often the coffee producer send the beans to be decaffeinated, which is done for free. the company doing that process keeps the caffeine and resell it to pharma companies

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#93

Post by tptacek » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 9:27 PM UTC

fabian2k wrote: post #90

tptacek wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boutique-roasted decaf coffee beans often are more expensive. But the logic also doesn't hold: it assumes coffee is being sold at or near the cost of its material inputs, and that's certainly not true. If you have a reasonable built-in margin for your coffee --- and boutique roasters certainly do --- it can be normal and rational to price irrespective of your cost basis. Customers are brand-loyal (especially if they…

The price difference between cheap supermarket coffee and high-end local roaster is large enough (up to 10x) that the potential additional cost for decaffeination doesn't seem that big of a deal if you're looking for coffee at the higher end of the quality scale.

Yeah, that's a much better and more concise way of saying what I did.

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#94

Post by jolmg » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 9:33 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #5

martinpw wrote: post #4

The decaf process seems expensive so you might expect the end result to cost more, but it never does. Which means either the producers are making less profit on decaf, or they are using lower quality beans. If the latter is true, which seems more likely, that might explain why decaf sometimes tastes less good, separately from the effect of the process itself on taste.

I suspect that when you buy decaf beans from a roaster they don't aren't the ones decaffeinating the coffee beans. I think roasters have a lot less choice when buying decaffeinated beans so I bet your theory is correct.

The decaf I buy states they have close ties with the farmers. The company they use for decaffeination seems to be a service-oriented company. You send them the raw coffee, they decaffeinate it, and then send it back with recommendations for roasting.

So, the "roaster" (if they don't use a separate company for that) does have the ability to select the exact same beans between their decaf and regular coffee products. Whether they sort the beans they get from the farmers and choose which go to be decaffeinated according to some criteria, is a separate thing.

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#95

Post by TeaBrain » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 10:14 PM UTC

hcrisp wrote: post #84

Teslazar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a similar problem. Coffee, decaf, even dark chocolate would be very stimulating and would mess with my sleep, even a single cup in the morning. I tried quite a few things to solve this and ended up discovering that supplementing with molybdenum solved it. Molybdenum is an essential element important in the metabolization of some compounds, including caffeine. It's cheap and may be worth trying. Also, I found th…

I couldn't find any citations that mention molybdenum as a way to increase metabolism of caffeine. However, I found one reference [0] that mentions, "Consumption of broccoli and brassica vegetables in general and absorption of large quantities of vitamin C increase caffeine clearance". EDIT: It would seem that the vitamin C paper [1] concludes the opposite of what [0] states. "These results indicate that the eliminat…

A limited number of studies suggested tobacco smoking increases the metabolism of caffeine, an effect possibly mediated by caffeine.

"Caffeine metabolism is increased by smoking, an effect mediated by an acceleration in its demethylation (it also increases xanthine oxidase activity) (Parsons and Neims, 1978). Smoking cessation returns caffeine clearance rates to nonsmoking values (Murphy et al., 1988)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK223808/#:~:text=Caffei....

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#96

Post by ClassyJacket » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 10:19 PM UTC

Anotheroneagain wrote: post #8

wnolens wrote: post #6

Will an entrepreneur please make high quality (great tasting) decaf coffee ubiquitous? There's a growing anti-drug sentiment that should be a great tailwind. It's hard for me to find as good tasting a bean as it is with non-decaf. I've tried subscription services or pay huge shipping and product premium from some boutique retailer, the beans are always just ok. Decaf still doesn't get enough priority as the product i…

It can't ever taste the same as caffeine has flavor.

It has a sharp, very bitter flavour most people hate. It's unlikely caffeine is contributing positively to the taste of anything.

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#97

Post by wnolens » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 10:20 PM UTC

infecto wrote: post #18

wnolens wrote: post #6

Will an entrepreneur please make high quality (great tasting) decaf coffee ubiquitous? There's a growing anti-drug sentiment that should be a great tailwind. It's hard for me to find as good tasting a bean as it is with non-decaf. I've tried subscription services or pay huge shipping and product premium from some boutique retailer, the beans are always just ok. Decaf still doesn't get enough priority as the product i…

Beanfruit generally ranks as one of the decaf favorites online. You should check it out.

Good example of what I mean:

They offer 7 different coffees. Only 1 is decaf! As if it were a "flavor"

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#98

Post by wnolens » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 10:24 PM UTC

et-al wrote: post #13

wnolens wrote: post #6

Will an entrepreneur please make high quality (great tasting) decaf coffee ubiquitous? There's a growing anti-drug sentiment that should be a great tailwind. It's hard for me to find as good tasting a bean as it is with non-decaf. I've tried subscription services or pay huge shipping and product premium from some boutique retailer, the beans are always just ok. Decaf still doesn't get enough priority as the product i…

There was a recent lifestyle article about decaf coffee. Have you tried any of the roasters listed here? https://sfstandard.com/2024/07/15/decaf-coffee-is-finally-wi...

I am not in SF, and so I've never heard of any of those roasters.

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#99

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 10:27 PM UTC

Toutouxc wrote: post #67

pillefitz wrote: post #48

I'd love if all psychoactive compounds could be removed from coffee beans. The stress response and inability to sleep I get from decaf beans is pretty much comparable to that from normal beans (and distinctly different from pure caffeine or green tea)

Interesting, either the store is selling you fake decaf, or there's really a whole bunch of other chemicals, other than caffeine, that can mess with your body. I have an unusually strong response to caffeine (a cup of coffee, strong tea, or, on a bad day, even a small glass of Coke). It doesn't really affect my heart (as far as my Apple Watch can tell), but it obliterates my sleep and makes me feel quite a bit more a…

[deleted]

Re: A chemist explains the chemistry behind decaf coffee

#100

Post by malfist » Thu, Jul 25, 2024, 10:33 PM UTC

philipkglass wrote: post #58

malfist wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CO2 can be reused so it's not that expensive, and the caffeine that gets extracted is sold separately, so it's possible decaffeinated coffee could have more profit that caffeinated. After all, we don't really make synthetic caffeine, we extract it from tea and coffee and add it to a lot of things.

Synthetic caffeine has been commercially used in beverages and medicine for over 100 years. I believe that most caffeine consumed today is actually synthetic, but it's hard to find a good citation for its prevalence. Most of the web pages mentioning synthetic and natural caffeine are spam for "market research" reports or natural health woo. You can see section "2.1. Production and use" for some relevant information a…

My statement of synthetic not being super prevalent comes from a memory of a really old how it's made episode, so it could be wrong or out of date