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Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

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Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#111
post #83

> We cannot tell at a glance whether 9999999999999999 and 999999999999999 are the same. Off topic - some of us can, iOS underlines one of these for me, treating it as a phone number…

BTW I noticed that the clickhouse CLI has an interesting visualization trick: wide numbers have each third digit rendered with an underline style. That's as effective as a thousands separator "," but you can copy paste the number into another program without having to edit the commas away

Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#112
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the definitions of in such footnotes would be full of terms that one also needs defined. For example here's the first few sentences from the Wikipedia page on Compact Sets: In mathematics, specifically general topology, compactness is a property that seeks to generalize the notion of a closed and bounded subset of Euclidean space.[1] The idea is that a compact space has no "punctures" or "missing…

I'd like to see a series of sites or interactive ebooks that work as described below, which would address that problem. I can't actually build such a site or ebook because (1) I'm not sufficiently mathematically sophisticated and (2) my front end skills aren't up to it. Each one would be devoted to one interesting major mathematical theorem, such as the prime number theorem. The initial view would be a presentation o…

You would probably end up writing copies of such books, since same proof will be included multiple times. And more copies written by humans means more errors.

Automated theorem proverbs can probably solve this problem though..

I had a professor who derived Riemann metric from just area of triangle and limits over the course of a semester. So I see what you're getting at, but such books will probably he too long for most people to read anyway.

Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#113
post #60

Isn’t this just taking a common sense concept and adapting it to the concepts and language of Turing machines and also topology? While yes it shows these are good tools, capable of confirming/proving these intuitions and showing exactly how these specific systems achieve that, is there ever any concern we are making too many redundant concepts? That may lead to confusion and obfuscate the search for novel ideas, whic…

These results help when you want to think about compression algorithms for example.

Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#114
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Next week on Show HN: I made a fractal font with unlimited scaling

The Minds from The Culture scifi series have something like this... The top level glyph is the base meaning and you can encode essentially infinite depth of meaning beyond that... Of course you have to go multidimensional at some point, so you can't really print it out beyond a few layers of resolution...

That would be quite the glyph / language.

Perhaps the sense of "I" can be that base, which then allows the expansion of I, I, I (sense of I around I) which expands to in front, behind, etc.

Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#115

Why do we need the property that X is compact? Say we define X (the square) to exclude the boundary: X = (0,1)x(0,1). This is no longer a compact set, but it seems silly for the proof to now fail. Is boundedness sufficient?

Note that $A_k = \left[\frac{1}{k}, \frac{2}{k}\right] \times \left[\frac{1}{k}, \frac{2}{k}\right] \to \{(0, 0)\}$ in $[0,1]\times [0, 1]$ with the Hausdoff metric, so it is a Cauchy sequence in $X = (0,1) \times (0, 1)$ but without convergent subsequence, i.e., $F(X)$ is not complete, hence not compact so the finite subcover argument fails.

Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#116

"I am assuming that the reader is familiar with the terms metric, metric space, topological space, and compact set." On behalf of the math-declined folks, I wish math articles had subtitles, references, and definitions built-in. I wonder if a browser extension for Greek letter definitions would be possible?

The problem is that the definitions of in such footnotes would be full of terms that one also needs defined. For example here's the first few sentences from the Wikipedia page on Compact Sets: In mathematics, specifically general topology, compactness is a property that seeks to generalize the notion of a closed and bounded subset of Euclidean space.[1] The idea is that a compact space has no "punctures" or "missing…

Another way of stating this, which I think is rather non-obvious to people who have not studied some amount of pure math, is that technical mathematical definitions are almost never helpful absent a substantial amount of additional context, because their purpose is generally to capture and formalize a much more intuitively-understood idea or motivating phenomena. A professor of mine liked to joke that MathWorld was a website devoted to collecting definitions which were as technically correct as possible while also being useful to nobody[1], and I think the quoted wikipedia passage follows in that tradition beautifully.

[1] I don't know if this is still the case, but it certainly was in the late '00s.

Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#118
A different but to my taste more mathematically conventional way to make this argument would be instead to say that a symbol is a function from the square to [0, 1], that is, a grayscale image. A symbol, because of limitations of either its writer/printer or its reader/viewer, should have some "regularity": as you move around the image, there should be some quantitative restrictions on how rapidly the darkness of the gray color should change. In this kind of setup, the space of symbols is compact by a version of the Arzela-Ascoli theorem, which I think was fairly well-known by the time Turing was working. This also has the advantage of being straightforward to generalize to things like colored images by just changing [0, 1] to, say, [0, 1]^3 to represent RGB space, or whatever you want, as some others are mentioning in the comments.

As an aside, this is an interesting companion read:

"A pedagogical history of compactness" (https://arxiv.org/abs/1006.4131)

As a working mathematician, I can say that this kind of argument has become totally routine and, were I reading Turing's paper carefully, after seeing "epsilon" and "compact" I would think "makes sense" and move on. But, historically speaking, it's interesting to realize how recent the development of the abstract idea of compactness was when Turing was writing---the time between Frechet and Hausdorff's work on compactness (see the pedagogical history) and Turing is about the time between Google being founded and today.

Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#119
post #67
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the observation time is finite, and the time resolution of the observation is limited, then you'd still only have a finite number of distinguishable symbols, wouldn't you?

That's true if the time resolution is limited. Theoretically there could be no limit. It would not make for a very practical alphabet, but it would still be an unlimited alphabet.

Just as Rorschach's mask always changes in Watchmen. We would have books with changing alphabet. In the library of babel, Harry Potter would be located in one section at a given time T1 but maybe at a different section at time T2.

Re: Turing's topological proof that every written alphabet is finite (2010)

#120
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> here if anywhere :-D We can play a lot of games with "what is a symbol", but compactness pervades many of the models that we use to describe reality. The crux of the argument is not necessarily that the symbols themselves are compact as sets, but that the *space of possible descriptions* is compact. In the article, the space of descriptions is (compact) subsets of a (compact) two-dimensional space, which (delightfu…

The proof defines F(X) as the set of compact subsets of X (here the unit square). The compactness of F(X) follows from (necessary?) the compactness of its elements, so we need to find a topology where all our allowable symbols are compact, and this is not the standard topology if you allow the spiral. If you take another topology (equivalently space of symbol descriptions) then you again must show that this compactne…

Your example centered on a symbol which, if viewed as a subset of the plane, is not compact. I tried to argue that the set of symbols that you describe (ink of varying levels of intensity in the unit square) still is a compact set, even though the symbols themselves are no longer represented by compact sets.
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