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Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

therage.co

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Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#31

Banks find AML "Ineffective" because the premise is erroneous. KYC is a sham because bankers don't actually know their customers and checking that you have a valid ID before you can open an account has no value . Criminals, or their straw men, have a valid ID. To detect crime you need detectives to investigate crimes. The transaction record by itself means nothing because the banks have no way to know what any of the…

Even if a piece of information isn't informative on an individual basis, it might provide improve the performance of a model that combines it with other inputs.

You don't need to posting about doing crimes for your FB profile to be useful for risk assessment. Your connections or other posts (e.g. about how some emergency means you're suddenly short of cash) could contribute to an elevated score.

The proposal doesn't go into much detail about how they imagine it will work, but it sounds like they're just saying that a statistical model (based on a larger set of data) would be more useful than a set of rules based on a tiny set of inputs. This seems entirely reasonable.

Here is the relevant paragraph:

  Input data for MSA platforms should incorporate not only transactional data, customer static data and internal reference lists, but also other dynamic behavioural customer information where proportionate to the risk (e.g. device ID, IP addresses). Using an RBA, input data may also include data from reputable external, publicly available sources, including information on company structures, Ultimate Beneficial Owners (UBO), and watch lists, as well as complementary sources such as market  data and verified customer social media accounts. Finally, FIs should establish robust data governance and quality control frameworks.

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#32

Banks find AML "Ineffective" because the premise is erroneous. KYC is a sham because bankers don't actually know their customers and checking that you have a valid ID before you can open an account has no value . Criminals, or their straw men, have a valid ID. To detect crime you need detectives to investigate crimes. The transaction record by itself means nothing because the banks have no way to know what any of the…

I agree with you. I think the only solution is for politicians to stop being soft on crime by funding police, prosecutors, courts, prisons, and rehabilitation services (rehab for both criminals and addicts). In addition the various tax authorities need to be empowered and funded to investigate tax fraud of all kinds and if caught then people need to be sent to prison rather than allowed to buy their way out of a sent…

I suspect that this is more about detecting stuff like scammers and laundering, not people buying drugs. Unless we start drone striking Indian call centers or start doing full blockades on Russia the only solution is to work on international relations so that these crimes can be adequately investigated.

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#33

It feels like we're gradually slipping into a dystopian nightmare world, predicted again and again by sci fi writers for decades, with no real strong opposition. There's the EFF, I guess? But advocacy groups don't seem particularly powerful or influential. I can't even hope for a "it'll get worse before it gets better" scenario. A world with normalized lack of privacy seems unlikely to suddenly care about it again. P…

The relevancy of advocacy groups is at an all time low because of just how little the professionally informed care these days. Tech was a "community" when the grifters slid in wanted something from the rest of us, and YOLO fuck you I got mine backstabbery when anyone suggested maybe not selling out our privacy quite so hard.

And it infects the rest of us. When our friends and colleagues have jobs swinging pickaxes at our societal expectations and standards of privacy, why do we pretend they're morally neutral in the whole thing?

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#34

Banks find AML "Ineffective" because the premise is erroneous. KYC is a sham because bankers don't actually know their customers and checking that you have a valid ID before you can open an account has no value . Criminals, or their straw men, have a valid ID. To detect crime you need detectives to investigate crimes. The transaction record by itself means nothing because the banks have no way to know what any of the…

I agree with you. I think the only solution is for politicians to stop being soft on crime by funding police, prosecutors, courts, prisons, and rehabilitation services (rehab for both criminals and addicts). In addition the various tax authorities need to be empowered and funded to investigate tax fraud of all kinds and if caught then people need to be sent to prison rather than allowed to buy their way out of a sent…

Most of that stuff isn't even related to this. Corporations and rich people don't avoid taxes by lying to banks, they avoid taxes by hiring tax lawyers or lobbying the government. The best way to put the drug cartels out of business is to let Pfizer and Merck beat them on quality and undercut them on price and then use the tax money to fund rehab and education programs.

The actual crimes this is supposed to prevent aren't all that common, and to the extent that they aren't prosecuted it's largely because the perpetrators have political power -- or are themselves nation states -- not because we don't have enough prosecutors to do it. Especially if we would actually put the drug cartels out of business in the aforementioned way.

We certainly don't need more people in prisons -- largest prison population in the world, how's it working?

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#35
When I moved to the UK, I was advised to open a bank account with either Monzo or Starling, which are the two online-only startup banks in the UK. (They're actual banks, not resellers backed by other banks, or money transfer apps like CashApp.) This is because their identity checks involved scanning a single identity document and sending a video of myself saying that I wanted to open a bank account. All the traditional 'High Street' banks wanted all sorts of documentation - Council Tax bills, infamously - that I simply didn't have, because I'd just arrived in the country.

I know why all this is necessary. London remains the financial capital of the world, and launders a lot of dirty money. Monzo in particular has strict limits on cash withdrawals and deposits, because their accounts are often used in the illicit drug trade.

I have no objection to AML and KYC regulations, but it's absolutely crucial that legitimate people who don't fit the usual patterns - people like recent immigrants - have access to the banking system.

The social media aspect of TFA is attention-grabbing, but I think it's a red herring. The more concerning aspect is the suggestion of AI. To what extent will those algorithms be used, and to what supervision will they be subject?

In the 1980s, my father was an 'Automation Engineer' in a bank. He built an 'artificial intelligence system' for assessing home loan approvals. It was one of those fill-out-a-form-and-we'll-tell-you-how-much-you-can-borrow things that are all over the Internet now - entirely deterministic and transparent.

That's how banking needs to work, at least for individuals. Determinism engenders trust.

Modern AIs, on the other hand, are for algorithms that are too complex to be explained. If you've got those controlling people's access to finance - not just loans, but money they've deposited in their own bank account - we have a serious problem.

'Cash is King' is not a solution. Before my Dad worked at the bank, he worked in the payroll department at a soap company. He had to drive to the factory with the paypackets - one for each employee, containing their wages in cash - each week, and hand them out. That's utterly ridiculous.

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#36

The actual proposal is short (9 pages including glossary) and linked in the article: https://db.wolfsberg-group.org/assets/e3d83d2f-fad9-46d2-b5a... I'd encourage you to draw your conclusions from the PDF rather than the journalist's interpretation.

The text is opaque, but:

> However, the Group believes strongly that the explicit focus on the provision of more highly useful information to relevant government agencies, and feedback from them on the information provided, will yield dividends in the form of more effective measures being taken against criminals and their illicit activity.

So they want to superhighway all of your transactions to your government and then let it judge you without any due process. I don't see how that's any good.

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#37

Banks find AML "Ineffective" because the premise is erroneous. KYC is a sham because bankers don't actually know their customers and checking that you have a valid ID before you can open an account has no value . Criminals, or their straw men, have a valid ID. To detect crime you need detectives to investigate crimes. The transaction record by itself means nothing because the banks have no way to know what any of the…

Even if a piece of information isn't informative on an individual basis, it might provide improve the performance of a model that combines it with other inputs. You don't need to posting about doing crimes for your FB profile to be useful for risk assessment. Your connections or other posts (e.g. about how some emergency means you're suddenly short of cash) could contribute to an elevated score. The proposal doesn't…

> Your connections or other posts (e.g. about how some emergency means you're suddenly short of cash) could contribute to an elevated score.

This sounds more like a way to send desperate people into a death spiral by raising interest rates or denying credit availability right at the worst possible moment than any kind of system that would prevent crime.

> The proposal doesn't go into much detail about how they imagine it will work, but it sounds like they're just saying that a statistical model (based on a larger set of data) would be more useful than a set of rules based on a tiny set of inputs. This seems entirely reasonable.

It's implying they want to invade everyone's privacy to set up a hallucinatory black box that destroys lives at random under the guise of... I'm not even sure what this is supposed to do. It's not going to yield anything that would be useful in a prosecution so it's more like opaque government-facilitated denial of service without due process. Far from reasonable, it's total crap.

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#38
I worked for Deutsche Bank for 2 years.

Before throwing stones, I knew it was a mistake going in, but I needed a job desperately and I was thinking I will sabotage them, from the inside.

Imagine my surprise when I realised I don't really need to sabotage them - they're doing it already on their own.

Every 6 months we got mandatory AML trainings - watching a couple of videos and answering some fairly basic questions. Every time, the same videos and the same questions - I had colleagues who simply wrote down the correct answers and completed this in 10 minutes.

I had colleagues who were actively helping (low level) drug dealers - taking their cash, depositing it their own private accounts and then transferring the funds to some other 3rd party (fairly low amounts, under 10k).

BaFin (the German banking supervisory authority) is useless (see Wirecard, Solaris, N26) - I personally made reports about another financial institution - got a boilerplate reply after a year that they'll look into it and nothing since then (this was more than a year ago).

I left the banking and fintech world and will never go back (unless I have a real possibility to sabotage them from the inside).

The cherry on top: I sold my car to a private individual and they paid me cash. We, of course, did a (ADAC) contract and the next day went to my bank (Postbank, part of DB) to deposit the funds (around 15k).

The clerk was on the verge of calling police because I had so much money on me. Even showing her the contract, explaining that I work in DB and I know what the AML regulations are etc made no difference. In the end I had to deposit 9.900 in my account and the rest in my wife's account. (you can't retrieve more than 10k, but there is no restriction on deposits, you just need to show ID)

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#39
post #35

When I moved to the UK, I was advised to open a bank account with either Monzo or Starling, which are the two online-only startup banks in the UK. (They're actual banks, not resellers backed by other banks, or money transfer apps like CashApp.) This is because their identity checks involved scanning a single identity document and sending a video of myself saying that I wanted to open a bank account. All the tradition…

> Monzo in particular has strict limits on cash withdrawals and deposits, because their accounts are often used in the illicit drug trade.

ATMs often have fees that the bank will pay for. For example, most ATMs have an upsell at the end to "check your balance" that your bank will pay for. On the other hand, card payments generate a small amount of revenue for the bank. Most payments in the UK are card payments or bank transfers.

I'll have to say you're mistaken. Monzo doesn't have limits on cash withdrawal as an AML control.

Re: Banks find AML "ineffective", propose access to social media

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if a piece of information isn't informative on an individual basis, it might provide improve the performance of a model that combines it with other inputs. You don't need to posting about doing crimes for your FB profile to be useful for risk assessment. Your connections or other posts (e.g. about how some emergency means you're suddenly short of cash) could contribute to an elevated score. The proposal doesn't…

> Your connections or other posts (e.g. about how some emergency means you're suddenly short of cash) could contribute to an elevated score. This sounds more like a way to send desperate people into a death spiral by raising interest rates or denying credit availability right at the worst possible moment than any kind of system that would prevent crime. > The proposal doesn't go into much detail about how they imagin…

This is really awful. Guilty by algo until proven that you can -pay- your way out
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