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Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

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Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#21

Post by satvikpendem »

keybored wrote: post #19
skummetmaelk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are very good at pretending we are more than just biological machines acting according to genetically imposed network structure refined by lifetime history of training inputs.

Nerds are good at pretending they understand everything by way of reductionist metaphors.

They don't pretend they understand everything though, just as we do not "understand" everything about LLMs even though we know they run on electronic computer systems; some properties are simply emergent via structure, and the same properties can emerge via biological computers too, but again, to notice that fact does not mean we "pretend to understand."

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#22

Post by keybored »

satvikpendem wrote: post #21
keybored wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nerds are good at pretending they understand everything by way of reductionist metaphors.

They don't pretend they understand everything though, just as we do not "understand" everything about LLMs even though we know they run on electronic computer systems; some properties are simply emergent via structure, and the same properties can emerge via biological computers too, but again, to notice that fact does not mean we "pretend to understand."

All of the assumptions (and the metaphor) contained in that response of yours seems to contradict the statement itself.

By using “just” you’ve already asserted that there is nothing more of relative importance to figure out—it’s done, figured out.

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#23

Post by 1659447091 »

satvikpendem wrote: post #20
skummetmaelk wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans are very good at pretending we are more than just biological machines acting according to genetically imposed network structure refined by lifetime history of training inputs.

Agreed, as a staunch physicalist [0]. As well, I don't think people need anyone else to grow into their own, unless they've been socially (or perhaps even physically) repressed. None of the people I know who are eccentric have really been molded that way by others per se, it was an inherent personality that came out because of precisely the opposite, they simply didn't give a shit what anyone else thought. [0] https:…

> it was an inherent personality that came out because of precisely the opposite, they simply didn't give a shit what anyone else thought.

A possible missing step here. While maybe true for some, many of (the few) eccentric types I know grew up bullied or ostracized in some small ways and after repeated failings to "fit in" or please others expectations said f-this and embraced themselves. It still came about from others, but in a not so pleasant way

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#24

Post by piva00 »

skummetmaelk wrote: post #15
wizerno wrote: post #5

This is so important and underrated in life. > "This is what I infer when I see someone who is comfortable in their unique strangeness, too. There probably exists someone who enabled that evolution of personality. A parent, a friend group, a spouse. It is rare for people to come into themselves if no one is excited and curious about their core, their potential. We need someone who gives us space to unfold."

Humans are very good at pretending we are more than just biological machines acting according to genetically imposed network structure refined by lifetime history of training inputs.

In a reductive way we're just that, the actual human part of it comes from the many loops this machine runs on to create emerging behaviour.

You could be even more reductive and just say we are chemical machines, or an agglomeration of molecules. Or that even the whole Universe is just a soup of vibrating energy. They aren't untrue but the reduction to such statements don't capture what emerges from.

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#25

Post by satvikpendem »

1659447091 wrote: post #23
satvikpendem wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, as a staunch physicalist [0]. As well, I don't think people need anyone else to grow into their own, unless they've been socially (or perhaps even physically) repressed. None of the people I know who are eccentric have really been molded that way by others per se, it was an inherent personality that came out because of precisely the opposite, they simply didn't give a shit what anyone else thought. [0] https:…

> it was an inherent personality that came out because of precisely the opposite, they simply didn't give a shit what anyone else thought. A possible missing step here. While maybe true for some, many of (the few) eccentric types I know grew up bullied or ostracized in some small ways and after repeated failings to "fit in" or please others expectations said f-this and embraced themselves. It still came about from ot…

Hence

> unless they've been socially (or perhaps even physically) repressed

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#26

Post by pjc50 »

keybored wrote: post #22
satvikpendem wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't pretend they understand everything though, just as we do not "understand" everything about LLMs even though we know they run on electronic computer systems; some properties are simply emergent via structure, and the same properties can emerge via biological computers too, but again, to notice that fact does not mean we "pretend to understand."

All of the assumptions (and the metaphor) contained in that response of yours seems to contradict the statement itself. By using “just” you’ve already asserted that there is nothing more of relative importance to figure out—it’s done, figured out.

These days "just" is a huge red flag for me. It's saying "my thinking stops here, yours should too".

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#27

Post by satvikpendem »

keybored wrote: post #22
satvikpendem wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't pretend they understand everything though, just as we do not "understand" everything about LLMs even though we know they run on electronic computer systems; some properties are simply emergent via structure, and the same properties can emerge via biological computers too, but again, to notice that fact does not mean we "pretend to understand."

All of the assumptions (and the metaphor) contained in that response of yours seems to contradict the statement itself. By using “just” you’ve already asserted that there is nothing more of relative importance to figure out—it’s done, figured out.

Yes, by using "just," it is a thought terminating word. However, again, I do believe we have it figured out, based on how we understand the rest of the universe to be physically-based as well. It is, in my experience, human arrogance that leads us to believe that we are somehow more than physical structures. It makes people feel uneasy to believe that so they invent something to solve that cognitive dissonance.

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#28

Post by pjc50 »

skummetmaelk wrote: post #15
wizerno wrote: post #5

This is so important and underrated in life. > "This is what I infer when I see someone who is comfortable in their unique strangeness, too. There probably exists someone who enabled that evolution of personality. A parent, a friend group, a spouse. It is rare for people to come into themselves if no one is excited and curious about their core, their potential. We need someone who gives us space to unfold."

Humans are very good at pretending we are more than just biological machines acting according to genetically imposed network structure refined by lifetime history of training inputs.

You could believe that, and it might even be true, but it's no way to live your life.

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#29

Post by paganel »

satvikpendem wrote: post #21
keybored wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nerds are good at pretending they understand everything by way of reductionist metaphors.

They don't pretend they understand everything though, just as we do not "understand" everything about LLMs even though we know they run on electronic computer systems; some properties are simply emergent via structure, and the same properties can emerge via biological computers too, but again, to notice that fact does not mean we "pretend to understand."

> biological computers

Using that as a metaphor is telling in itself, as we're far from being (just) "biological computers".

Re: Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

#30

Post by satvikpendem »

paganel wrote: post #29
satvikpendem wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't pretend they understand everything though, just as we do not "understand" everything about LLMs even though we know they run on electronic computer systems; some properties are simply emergent via structure, and the same properties can emerge via biological computers too, but again, to notice that fact does not mean we "pretend to understand."

> biological computers Using that as a metaphor is telling in itself, as we're far from being (just) "biological computers".

> as we're far from being (just) "biological computers".

What part is? Or rather, how can you show that we are not? Note that I use "computer" in the general sense, that which computes, by taking in input and emitting output.

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