Open source AI is the path forward • Hacker News Board

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#311

Post by pwdisswordfishd » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #74

> We’re releasing Llama 3.1 405B, the first frontier-level open source AI model, as well as new and improved Llama 3.1 70B and 8B models. Bravo! While I don't agree with Zuck's views and actions on many fronts, on this occasion I think he and the AI folks at Meta deserve our praise and gratitude. With this release, they have brought the cost of pretraining a frontier 400B+ parameter model to ZERO for pretty much ever…

Makes me wonder why he's really doing this. Zuckerberg being Zuckerberg, it can't be out of any genuine sense of altruism. Probably just wants to crush all competitors before he monetizes the next generation of Meta AI.

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#312

Post by troupo » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #74

> We’re releasing Llama 3.1 405B, the first frontier-level open source AI model, as well as new and improved Llama 3.1 70B and 8B models. Bravo! While I don't agree with Zuck's views and actions on many fronts, on this occasion I think he and the AI folks at Meta deserve our praise and gratitude. With this release, they have brought the cost of pretraining a frontier 400B+ parameter model to ZERO for pretty much ever…

There's nothing open source about it.

It's a proprietary dump of data you can't replicate or verify.

What were the sources? What datasets it was trained on? What are the training parameters? And so on and so on

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#313

Post by hluska » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 5:59 PM UTC

gpm wrote: post #236

whimsicalism wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because whether they make 100x or 200x they make a shitload of money. It's not a certainty that they 'make a shitload of money'. Reducing the right tail payoffs absolutely reduces the capital allocated to solve problems - many of which are risky bets . Your solution absolutely decreases capital investment at the margin, this is indisputable and basic economics. Even worse when the taking is not due to some pre-exis…

You can't just look at the costs to an action, you also have to look at the benefits. Of course I agree I'm going to stop marginal investments from occurring into research into patent-able technologies by reducing the expect profit. But I'm going to do so very slightly because I'm not shifting the expected value by very much. Meanwhile I'm going to greatly increase the investment into the existing technology we alrea…

You have proposed state ownership of all successful IP. That is a massive change and yet you have demonstrated zero understanding of the possible costs.

Your claim that removing a profit motivation will increase investment is flat out wrong. Everything else crumbles from there.

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#314

Post by sangnoir » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 6:00 PM UTC

exe34 wrote: post #71

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no one has bothered to release their training data If the FOSS community sets this as the benchmark for open source in respect of AI, they're going to lose control of the term. In most jurisdictions it would be illegal for the likes of Meta to release training data.

the training data is the source.

We've had a similar debate before, but the last time it about whether Linux device drivers based on non-public datasheets under NDA were actually open source. This debate occurred again over drivers that interact with binary blobs.

I disagree with the purists - if you can legally change the source or weights - even without having access to the data used by the upstream authors - it's open enough for me. YMMV.

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#315

Post by sheepscreek » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 6:01 PM UTC

jessechin wrote: post #269

throwaway_2494 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We’re releasing Llama 3.1 405B Is it possible to run this with ollama?

Sure, if you have a H100 cluster. If you quant it to int4 you might get away with using only 4 H100 GPUs!

Assuming $25k a pop, that’s at least $100k in just the GPUs alone. Throw in their linking technology (NVLink) and cost for the remaining parts, won’t be surprised if you’re looking at $150k for such a cluster. Which is not bad to be honest, for something at this scale.

Can anyone share the cost of their pre-built clusters, they’ve recently started selling? (sorry feeling lazy to research atm, I might do that later when I have more time).

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#316

Post by freeone3000 » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 6:04 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #266

freeone3000 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we have public capital formation, we don’t necessarily need private capital. Private innovation in weather modelling isn’t outpacing government work by leaps and bounds, for instance.

because it is extremely challenging to capture the additional value that is being produced by better weather forecasts and generally the forecasts we have right now are pretty good. private capital is absolutely the driving force for the vast majority of innovations since the beginning of the 20th century. public capital may be involved, but it is dwarfed by private capital markets.

It’s challenging to capture the additional value and the forecasts are pretty good because of continual large-scale government investment into weather forecasting. NOAA is launching satellites! it’s a big deal!

Private nuclear research is heavily dependent on governmental contracts to function. Solar was subsidized to heck and back for years. Public investment does work, and does make a didference.

I would even say governmental involvement is sometimes even the deciding factor, to determine if research is worth pursuing. Some major capital investors have decided AI models cannot possibly gain enough money to pay for their training costs. So what do we do when we believe something is a net good for society, but isn’t going to be profitable?

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#317

Post by danielmarkbruce » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 6:04 PM UTC

hubraumhugo wrote: post #112

The big winners of this: devs and AI startups - No more vendor lock-in - Instead of just wrapping proprietary API endpoints, developers can now integrate AI deeply into their products in a very cost-effective and performant way - Price race to the bottom with near-instant LLM responses at very low prices are on the horizon As a founder, it feels like a very exciting time to build a startup as your product automatical…

It creates the opposite of a flywheel effect for you. It creates a leapfrog effect.

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#318

Post by mupuff1234 » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 6:06 PM UTC

yesco wrote: post #256

mupuff1234 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but don't you think the "not getting locked out" is just the pre-requisite for their eventual goal of locking everyone else out?

Does it really matter? Attributing goodwill to a company is like attributing goodwill to a spider that happens to clean up the bugs in your basement. Sure if they had the ability to, I'm confident Meta would try something like that, but they obviously don't, and will not for the foreseeable future. I have faith they will continue to do what's in their best interests and if their best interests happen to align with mi…

But you also know that the spider has been laying eggs so you better have an extermination plan ready.

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#319

Post by littlestymaar » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 6:10 PM UTC

I love how Zuck decided to play a new game called “commoditize some other billionaire's business to piss him”, I can't wait until this becomes a trend and we get plenty of open source cool stuff.

If he really wants to replicate Linux's success against proprietary Unices, he needs to release Llama with some kind of GPL equivalent, that forces everyone to play the open source game.

Re: Open source AI is the path forward

#320

Post by boringg » Tue, Jul 23, 2024, 6:10 PM UTC

hubraumhugo wrote: post #112

The big winners of this: devs and AI startups - No more vendor lock-in - Instead of just wrapping proprietary API endpoints, developers can now integrate AI deeply into their products in a very cost-effective and performant way - Price race to the bottom with near-instant LLM responses at very low prices are on the horizon As a founder, it feels like a very exciting time to build a startup as your product automatical…

- Price race to the bottom with near-instant LLM responses at very low prices are on the horizon

Maybe a big price war while the market majors fight out for positioning but they still need to make money off their investments so someone is going to have to raise prices at some point and youll be locked into their system if you build on it.