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James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

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Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#41

Post by mrbombastic »

sameoldtune wrote: post #11
jagged-chisel wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Diversity in [the featuresets of] software systems has led to reduced security. The only systems without the “rails” to keep the user on-track and out of danger zones are those that provide the user with the ability to program it themselves. Must it be this way? Can we provide the complexity of flexibility while protecting our users’ finances and other important information? I don’t know if we can, but our track reco…

In the context of my comment you’re thinking very small. Yes, providing more options for users can make an application less secure. But that force to make it secure is the very force I’m describing which locks down people’s options, their ability to self-express, and their options to create personal and societal value out of their actions. Every choice a programmer makes about how to model the world is a choice that…

I find this a bit hyperbolic, a program is a tool, code is a means to build that tool, restricting the feature set of a tool is not fascistic it is a design choice that is often for the benefit of the user, although I will concede certainly not always. If the user doesn’t feel your tool gives them the right options they can pick another tool. is making a hammer that hits nails fascistic because the user could have used the raw materials to make a screwdriver? Or maybe we shouldn’t build any more programs, your favorite programing language already can edit your photos! Good luck grandma!

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#43

Post by polynox »

sho wrote: post #23
polynox wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not the "dispassionate dividing of the world into rigid categories" necessary in order to implement software that is morally or ethically problematic, it is the imposition of those rigid categories upon society at large, perhaps by itself or perhaps merely just the conflation of the separation between the categories that gets incorporated into the design as a subconscious or even conscious choice to reify the c…

The "scientific management" was just one example out of many, and I disagree its lessons form the thesis of the book. The thesis as I understood it was that states seek legibility of domains under their jurisdiction, and the example of the forests was demonstrating the bad outcomes arising from seeking that legibility through misguided means. While unfortunate, that was an implementation error that could - and indeed…

I agree and you are correct that concept of legibility was central, however going from the text now I believe that James takes specific issue with joint combination of both the exercise of state authority as well as the blindness that is implied by high modernism. Starting on page 88:

> I believe that many of the most tragic episodes of state development in the late nineteenth and twentieth centuries originate in a particularly pernicious combination of three elements. The first is the aspiration to the administrative ordering of nature and society, ... The second element is the unrestrained use of the power of the modern state as an instrument for achieving those designs. The third element is a weakened or prostrate civil society that lacks the capacity to resist those plans.

I believe my comment still stands, in responding to not the book but the author of the comment, in that framework I'm describing, assuming the thesis of the book is true, then the second element is not met by the mere publication of software. Rather it is the foisting of such software upon users that is the act of power or other covert means by which choice is restricted such as controlling the bounds of publication or else the centralizing nature of capital investment in software that by sheer bad luck it turns out that perhaps we just end up with a few pseudo monopolies because software as a capital expense is ... well, expensive to develop.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#44

Post by wayathr0w »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #9

Two Cheers For Anarchism was a book that challenged my priors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Cheers_for_Anarchism I'm not an anarchist, but it's a wonderful read and includes a quote that has shaped my life ever since: > “One need not have an actual conspiracy to achieve the practical effects of a conspiracy. More regimes have been brought, piecemeal, to their knees by what was once called ‘Irish Democracy,’ the…

Scott wasn't an anarchist either - hence "Two Cheers" instead of three. He worked for the CIA in the 1960s, self-identified as a "crude Marxist" at best, didn't believe it was possible or necessary to eliminate the state - which he described as a rare but potential force for good - and was a frequent donor to the Democrats.

http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/536292

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#45

Post by recursivedoubts »

wayathr0w wrote: post #44
recursivedoubts wrote: post #9

Two Cheers For Anarchism was a book that challenged my priors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Cheers_for_Anarchism I'm not an anarchist, but it's a wonderful read and includes a quote that has shaped my life ever since: > “One need not have an actual conspiracy to achieve the practical effects of a conspiracy. More regimes have been brought, piecemeal, to their knees by what was once called ‘Irish Democracy,’ the…

Scott wasn't an anarchist either - hence "Two Cheers" instead of three. He worked for the CIA in the 1960s, self-identified as a "crude Marxist" at best, didn't believe it was possible or necessary to eliminate the state - which he described as a rare but potential force for good - and was a frequent donor to the Democrats. http://barcelona.indymedia.org/newswire/display/536292

interesting perspective, thank you!

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#46

Post by sameoldtune »

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #15
sameoldtune wrote: post #6

The concepts in Seeing Like A State are very relevant to programmers and to anyone trying to “change the world” with technology. One of the main points is that for a state to manage many people it tends to use power (hard and soft) to homogenize the populace. My belief is that tech necessarily does the same thing. Everyone in your app has permissions defined by some enum, a limited number of actions available, conten…

> My belief is that tech necessarily does the same thing [, homegenize people]. Great call out! This is very near the core of my technospiritual struggles, the issue of tech to me. First, I'd say it's important to open the framing some! Ursala Franklin contrasts perscriptive vs holistic technologies, tech which sets fixed order versus tech that expands the capability of people & craftsmem. Tech can expand not constra…

Thanks for this insightful response!
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