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Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

telegraph.co.uk

61–70 of 76 posts

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#61
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autism is the reason for the symptoms. The symptoms can also be reduced by masking.

I wouldn't characterize masking as a reduction of symptoms. Masking is putting on a face to _hide_ symptoms from others to appear more 'normal'. It's f-ing exhausting. The symptoms never go away.

I guess it depends how you look at it. I’d say hiding symptoms is the same as reducing symptoms.

In this case when you reduce symptoms with masking then you get different symptoms, like exhaustion.

And yes, this doesn’t seem healthy for the person who is masking, especially when taken to the extreme levels.

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#62
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ABA is based on the same underlying research that gay conversion therapy uses.

Wow, this is a big statement. Can you explain further? Specifically: is the technique itself cruel or otherwise unethical? Or is gay conversion therapy an unethical application of an otherwise ethical treatment? I could (and am) googling this, but as with any topic there's a lot of poisoned and contradictory information...

Yes, the technique is cruel.

Basically, it involves taking kids, giving them 'good' feedback - eg, access to a toy - if they mask, or act like they are not autistic. It gives them punishments, which in some cases is electric shocks if they misbehave - which can mean anything from not making eye contact to lashing out because they cannot get the bad things to stop and they need it to stop. Other common punishments include forcing kids to touch or smell things they dislike.

A common reward is something like getting your tablet back. Many autistic people are nonverbal, so they are removing their ability to communicate and expecting them not to try communicating by, say, lashing out or having a meltdown when the bad things keep happening.

The goal of the program is not to help, as therapy does. It does not allow them to explore possible coping mechanisms, eg headphones or fidgets, to find ones that work well. It says that their autism - a facet of who they are - is bad. They do not allow autistic children to stim, or repetitively do an action. While some stims can be bad (eg my childhood stim of picking at my skin), that is not because stimming is inherently bad but because the particular mechanism is bad. The way I stopped picking at my skin (mostly) was by redirecting it, eg by using fidgets or by finding something that feels the same but is less harmful. (I'd be getting my fingers covered in kid-strength glue a lot more often if it wasn't inconvenient.) Stimming is important for coping with stress and regulating emotions. Plus, they're enjoyable.

ABA also leads to nearly 50 percent of people who are forced to undergo it having PTSD. (Autistic people are at a higher risk for having PTSD, but it is still a marked increase.)

It is child abuse, plain and simple. There is no possible justification for it, and it is absurd and terrible that when it is being inflicted on autistic children it turns from child abuse into 'therapy' and gains any measure of acceptance.

A great resource on it is here: https://autisticselfadvocatesagainstaba.wordpress.com/2020/0.... A fair amount of the specific details of ABA are from here, as I - thankfully - have not undergone ABA. (If you want a more reputable source than random Wordpress blogs, the Autistic Self Advocacy Network [https://autisticadvocacy.org] also condemns it.)

Also, when over half and possibly nearly 9 out of 10 autistic women have been sexually assaulted (!) [see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9087551/], teaching kids that adults can touch their bodies how they want and they don't get a say in it might not be the best idea.

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#63
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ABA is based on the same underlying research that gay conversion therapy uses.

Wow, this is a big statement. Can you explain further? Specifically: is the technique itself cruel or otherwise unethical? Or is gay conversion therapy an unethical application of an otherwise ethical treatment? I could (and am) googling this, but as with any topic there's a lot of poisoned and contradictory information...

This is my favorite article of the topic: https://neuroclastic.com/is-aba-really-dog-training-for-chil...

Ethics are, sadly, totally unquantifiable, so they must always be some level opinion. But if dog trainers are held to a higher standard regarding ethical training of dogs than ABA providers are held to regarding ethical treatment of Autistic children, I think we have a pretty persuasive argument right there that ABA is totally unethical.

It's also notable that Autistic academics like Devon Price, a fairly famous professor of social psychology, also believe ABA is unethical.

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#64
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ABA is based on the same underlying research that gay conversion therapy uses.

I know from various empirical sources that ABA works way better than the alternatives. But how about the gay conversion therapy? Can anybody do any real science on that or any scientist that would touch the topic would have to say goodbye to his career?

It "works" by forcing people to hide who they are.

It's like saying that you got rid of people with brown hair by making them dye it something else, only instead of hair color it's a fundamental part of who they are and it greatly increases the risk of PTSD and it only works if you're measuring the wrong thing and instead of basing it on the autistic person's ability to be okay it bases it on society's expectations and it's child abuse and just no.

When autistic people are speaking[1] out[2] en[3] masse[4] against[5] it[6], would you ignore what they say? When they say[7] it's[8] bad[9] and[10] unethical[11] and[12] abusive[13] do you say that it isn't?

When a woman goes to a police station saying that she is a victim of domestic violence, should the police say it works way better than the alternatives? Should they reject her statements that it is harmful and bad? If a child comes up to you and says that their parents are beating them and screaming at them if they do poorly in school, would you say that it works way better than the alternatives?

Or is it only okay when the person is autistic?

[1] https://a4aontario.com/2018/05/24/why-we-oppose-aba-in-any-f... [note: a lot of these are personal blogs]

[2] https://autisticselfadvocatesagainstaba.wordpress.com/2020/0...

[3] https://neurodifferent.me/@joshsusser/111495271981897561

[4] https://autisticadvocacy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Firs...

[5] https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41252-021-00201-1, by an autistic author.

[6] https://autisticscienceperson.com/why-aba-therapy-is-harmful...

[7] https://loveexplosions.net/2013/09/15/touch-nose-gummi-bear-...

[8] https://www.the74million.org/article/no-more-cures-no-more-f...

[9] https://awnnetwork.org/my-thoughts-on-aba/

[10] https://unstrangemind.com/aba/

[11]https://www.the74million.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/Ethi...

[12] https://stopabasupportautistics.home.blog/2019/08/11/persona...

[13] https://neuroclastic.com/aba-horror-stories-are-far-too-comm...

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#65
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See how journalists sensationalize. The original title "Reversal of Autism Symptoms among Dizygotic Twins through a Personalized Lifestyle and Environmental Modification Approach" became "Autism can be reversed, scientists discover" which is an entirely different thing. Facepalm.

How is it sensationalizing? I would not have thought it possible to reverse autism at all, now I do. Only read the abstract but it’s still pretty sensational.

It is not reversal of symptoms. From Dr. House: paralytic doesn't reverse pain, it just makes screams go away.

ABA (masking) doesn't reverse autism. It just makes it less visible from outside (no matter the cost from within).

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it sensationalizing? I would not have thought it possible to reverse autism at all, now I do. Only read the abstract but it’s still pretty sensational.

You can't reverse autism because it is on gene level(unless you do heavy gene editing): https://www.livescience.com/health/neuroscience/lab-grown-mi... Even more - that is also evolutionary change, as 40% speed increase of brain development in embryos is exactly that. How other things are adapting is of different matter. All people will be autistic eventually.

There's genetic tests for autism?

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#67
post #49
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is autism if not a collection of symptoms?

It's not that. Your brain function differently. My biggest symptom as a kid was a difficulty to lie (white lie or otherwise) when asked directly about something. I did a year of therapy to learn that, and how I should learn it. The fact that I can now say 'what a beautiful dress' and not 'I guess it's okay, I don't really care' was directly taught, as do a lot of social stuff non-autistic people learn by mimetism. An…

That's not normal?

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#69
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that. Your brain function differently. My biggest symptom as a kid was a difficulty to lie (white lie or otherwise) when asked directly about something. I did a year of therapy to learn that, and how I should learn it. The fact that I can now say 'what a beautiful dress' and not 'I guess it's okay, I don't really care' was directly taught, as do a lot of social stuff non-autistic people learn by mimetism. An…

That's not normal?

Autism is a spectrum, if you have to think about social interactions, you probably are on it. It doesn't mean you don't have empathy, or that you aren't a functioning human (That's why i really dislike people using "High-functioning autism"), but sometimes you have less to hide than other autists, or you're thinking quick enough to hide it better than your peers.

The fist hint for me was the psychologist who taught me how to lie (or rather, explained to me social interactions, as i did not care about it at the time), and that's as clear as it can be, but sometimes its only weird result on IQ tests: if you moved countries if often don't mean anything, but if you did not and you scores are not homogeneous accross the tests, like 4 in the high 130 and one in the low 90s, you're probably on the spectrum too.

Re: Reversal of autism symptoms among dizygotic twins: A case report

#70
post #59

I expect this to stay flagged but this article is partially my fault. It's completely true and not editorialized. >The diet was casein-free, a protein found in milk; low-sugar; had no artificial colours or dyes; zero ultra-processed foods; primarily organic; and locally sourced Aspergers can essentially be reversed. Level 2 and 3 can dramatically be reduced. The thing that really upsets me, the anti-autism/adhd discr…

I think that your wording is still horrendous. One thing is autism that is in genes and other is behavioral/adaptational etc. change. I can assure you that diet had no impact on my anxiety that I have with my autism, where in stressful situations I have severe communication issues with other people with all rhe "classic autism" symptoms, while in very relaxed environment you will have a hard time to define me as auti…

>I think that your wording is still horrendous.

I deserve that. I legit dont re-read anything i write on here because i tend to be censored.

>One thing is autism that is in genes and other is behavioral/adaptational etc. change.

Not genetic. GWBush put a ton of money into this and they essentially came away with nothing. 23andme isn't detecting autism via genes.

>I can assure you that diet had no impact on my anxiety that I have with my autism,

Which diets have you tried? The article never super specified which exactly. Kind of keto but that wouldn't be good enough. You'd still have problems.

>where in stressful situations I have severe communication issues with other people with all rhe "classic autism" symptoms, while in very relaxed environment you will have a hard time to define me as autistic at all - where my adhd(undiagnosed) would crawl out...

Ya you don't need to be like that anymore. You could be able to sit quietly in a dark room and just be. No chatter in the brain anymore. It's a level of peace that you really need to experience for the first time.

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