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James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

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Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#21

Post by gavinhoward »

strken wrote: post #17
sameoldtune wrote: post #6

The concepts in Seeing Like A State are very relevant to programmers and to anyone trying to “change the world” with technology. One of the main points is that for a state to manage many people it tends to use power (hard and soft) to homogenize the populace. My belief is that tech necessarily does the same thing. Everyone in your app has permissions defined by some enum, a limited number of actions available, conten…

Depends which tech. I would argue that bash scripting or excel do almost the opposite.

Side effect of Turing-completeness, maybe?

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#22

Post by cryptica »

sameoldtune wrote: post #6

The concepts in Seeing Like A State are very relevant to programmers and to anyone trying to “change the world” with technology. One of the main points is that for a state to manage many people it tends to use power (hard and soft) to homogenize the populace. My belief is that tech necessarily does the same thing. Everyone in your app has permissions defined by some enum, a limited number of actions available, conten…

Both the state and corporations want to homogenize the population.

The state wants a homogeneous population because it make it easier to obtain desired election outcomes and desired amount of power if people can be manipulated as large groups towards a limited subset of parties/options. The politician who promises "I will lower tax for the middle class by 1%" won't stand a chance if their opponent promises "I will completely abolish all taxes for the middle class."

Corporations want a homogeneous population because it makes it easier to meet consumer needs if consumers all want the same things. Also, in terms of marketing, it's easier/more effective to target people based on their social groups; then let people expend the effort required to bring themselves into alignment with the group identity... As opposed to trying to target campaigns based on complex individual needs...

When trying to create campaigns which cater to many unique individuals, there may be no clear, repeatable patterns that can drive predictable consumer behaviors. If the consumer can be tricked into adapting their own personal preferences to more closely match their group's preference... and if that group happens to be a large group, it creates predictable consumer behavior, at scale, at no cost.

E.g.

Identity = "I'm a creative individual"

-> Sales pitch = "Here, buy this Apple computer"

Identity = "I'm a moral person"

-> Sales pitch = "Here, buy this book about DEI and corporate responsibility"

Identity = "I'm a libertarian"

-> Sales pitch = "Here, buy some Bitcoin"

Identity = "I'm a highly educated and caring person"

-> Sales pitch = "Here, buy this vaccine to protect your loved ones"

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#23

Post by sho »

polynox wrote: post #20
sameoldtune wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of my comment you’re thinking very small. Yes, providing more options for users can make an application less secure. But that force to make it secure is the very force I’m describing which locks down people’s options, their ability to self-express, and their options to create personal and societal value out of their actions. Every choice a programmer makes about how to model the world is a choice that…

It is not the "dispassionate dividing of the world into rigid categories" necessary in order to implement software that is morally or ethically problematic, it is the imposition of those rigid categories upon society at large, perhaps by itself or perhaps merely just the conflation of the separation between the categories that gets incorporated into the design as a subconscious or even conscious choice to reify the c…

The "scientific management" was just one example out of many, and I disagree its lessons form the thesis of the book. The thesis as I understood it was that states seek legibility of domains under their jurisdiction, and the example of the forests was demonstrating the bad outcomes arising from seeking that legibility through misguided means. While unfortunate, that was an implementation error that could - and indeed was - corrected.

I'd say a much better illustrative example from the book was the introduction of last names. In that case, faced with the illegible identity of the people under its rule, a whole new construct was invented, imposed and pertains to this day. This one really opened my eyes. The whole reason we have last names at all is because our society just sort of invented them, hundreds of years ago, for its own convenience, and it was so successful we all just accept it as the way things are. Now that is seeing - and acting - like a state!

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#24

Post by svnt »

sameoldtune wrote: post #6

The concepts in Seeing Like A State are very relevant to programmers and to anyone trying to “change the world” with technology. One of the main points is that for a state to manage many people it tends to use power (hard and soft) to homogenize the populace. My belief is that tech necessarily does the same thing. Everyone in your app has permissions defined by some enum, a limited number of actions available, conten…

Things fade; alternatives exclude.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#25

Post by ggm »

Ironic to see paper publishing of radical state analytics: those papers demanded a highly structured state exist, to allow complex modern phototypesetting and distribution systems to exist, and the underpinnings of mechanical, electrical and computational engineering which make it possible to mass produce books.

In order to document the state, it is necessary to at least partially exist inside the state. In order to critique the state, you depend on the state to provide the means of production of that critique. If not one state, then another. And so in like terms, your critique will be co-opted for somebody else's benefit. Thats the nature of states.

Scott was not Ayn Rand. She was apparently lucid enough to realise her core dependency on the state, and had a complex end, in state provided health care.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#26

Post by elevaet »

sriacha wrote: post #12

Sad news. Highly recommend his "Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States".

This was a great book. It seems less well-known in the HN-sphere than Seeing Like A State, but it's at least as good IMHO. It really changed my mental model of the dynamics of early states and "barbarians", and how agriculture interplayed with the story of how it all unfolded.

My one criticism was that when answering the question "why did people start eating grains", he never seemed to consider that it could simply be that people enjoy eating them.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#27

Post by ohlook »

gavinhoward wrote: post #21
strken wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends which tech. I would argue that bash scripting or excel do almost the opposite.

Side effect of Turing-completeness, maybe?

Is just one possible model for computation. How deep our reliance on it is just makes it another of those normalizers that round off analog buzz we seem to prefer as analog meat suits.

Society is in a Goodharts Law phase; the last 50-60 years are increasingly seen as a shit measure for planning the future.

Achievement using computers as we know them is tapped out due to physical limitations. Technical success there is too specific an output to be generally applicable.

All the talk in IT about not making monoliths and the biggest portion industry is just 3 cloud providers, Python, Linux, network stacks, and the JS ecosystem.

Ignorant business machine tech is dead to gen pop who are tired of giving up their time to tap on bullshit. It’s best put to real science and management of material logistics.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#28

Post by pm3003 »

speckledben wrote: post #2

"Seeing Like A State" is a superb book, but I'll always remember Scott for "The Art of Not Being Governed." I was a history major in college, and seeing history from the point of view of non-state peoples was revelatory for a young student. I greatly enjoyed it, truly one of those experiences in life where my mind was opened and expanded in a new direction. I'll forever remember him for that, and be grateful for his…

Seeing like a State sadly has some badly written chapters, including some of those not written by him. This makes the book quite a tedious read overall, alternating between deep analysis and highschool level history refresh. The Art of noy being governed is better in this regard.

Re: James C. Scott, author of Seeing Like a State, has died

#29

Post by MichaelZuo »

sho wrote: post #23
polynox wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not the "dispassionate dividing of the world into rigid categories" necessary in order to implement software that is morally or ethically problematic, it is the imposition of those rigid categories upon society at large, perhaps by itself or perhaps merely just the conflation of the separation between the categories that gets incorporated into the design as a subconscious or even conscious choice to reify the c…

The "scientific management" was just one example out of many, and I disagree its lessons form the thesis of the book. The thesis as I understood it was that states seek legibility of domains under their jurisdiction, and the example of the forests was demonstrating the bad outcomes arising from seeking that legibility through misguided means. While unfortunate, that was an implementation error that could - and indeed…

The real truth is that all 8 billion+ people plus all the world's organizations, governments, and so on, are constantly interpenetrating and co-modifying each other, every second of the day.

But no one can comprehend this, so at best, if you are literally the smartest person in the world, you might be able to get away with only a few hundred simplifying abstractions.

The average HN user probably needs tens of thousands.

So its not just states, it's everyone and everything that will ever exist.

The real question is what is the best bundle of such aids to use, at any given time?

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