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Why You Should Not Use Tcl (1994)

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Re: Why You Should Not Use Tcl (1994)

#51
> auth required pam_faillock.so preauth silent deny=3 unlock_time=never fail_interval=900

I have seen other security theater types suggest this. What a completely stupid idea. If an attacker or even a well meaning script triggers this on the account you have sudo with you are now locked out forever.

Using fail2ban with a temp ban is enough to stop brute force attempts.

Re: Why You Should Not Use Tcl (1994)

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ousterhout's main argument seems to be: > This is the proposition that you should use two languages for a large software system: one, such as C or C++, for manipulating the complex internal data structures where performance is key, and another, such as Tcl, for writing small-ish scripts that tie together the C pieces and are used for extensions. Thankfully, today, we have great programming languages, like Python, tha…

>Thankfully, today, we have great programming languages, like Python, that people enjoy using both for large software systems Python is absolutely terrible to use as a stand alone language. Almost everywhere it is used (ML, Data Science, Scientific computing, etc.) it is used to call C or C++. The amount of serious Python software that doesn't makes extensive use of calling to other languages is very small. Python al…

> Python is absolutely terrible to use as a stand alone language. Almost everywhere it is used (ML, Data Science, Scientific computing, etc.) it is used to call C or C++. The amount of serious Python software that doesn't makes extensive use of calling to other languages is very small.

I have worked on lots of huge python codebases, so I don't buy this argument.

For example, all of YouTube, Instagram, Dropbox, Spotify, Reddit, Pinterest, Quora and Netflix is mostly build in Python.

Do many of the libraries that are optimized for speed call some C and C++ code? Sure. But so do many Java libraries. And ML libraries these days have to call CUDA code anyway, so you can't even do "stand alone development" in C.

Re: Why You Should Not Use Tcl (1994)

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So many citations needed.

For what exactly? He's right - the biggest users of Python use it as a convenient way of driving C (Pytorch, Blender, Numpy, Pandas, etc.). On its own it is simply too slow.

These days in ML it's more often "a convenient way" of driving CUDA. So I guess there are no "standalone programming languages".

It's a silly argument, though. If you have a million lines of Python code, and some of it calls some library that contains lower-level code, does that mean Python is a "scripting language"? I wouldn't say so.

Re: Why You Should Not Use Tcl (1994)

#54
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ousterhout's main argument seems to be: > This is the proposition that you should use two languages for a large software system: one, such as C or C++, for manipulating the complex internal data structures where performance is key, and another, such as Tcl, for writing small-ish scripts that tie together the C pieces and are used for extensions. Thankfully, today, we have great programming languages, like Python, tha…

I disagree, Python is exactly the glue language that Ousterhout was describing.

Ousterhout is talking about Tcl, a language that doesn't even have arrays. Or numbers.

Did you ever try writing a large 1mil+ line codebase in Tcl or Bash? I'm pretty sure you'd prefer Python.

Re: Why You Should Not Use Tcl (1994)

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ousterhout's main argument seems to be: > This is the proposition that you should use two languages for a large software system: one, such as C or C++, for manipulating the complex internal data structures where performance is key, and another, such as Tcl, for writing small-ish scripts that tie together the C pieces and are used for extensions. Thankfully, today, we have great programming languages, like Python, tha…

If you go through the linked discussion on google groups you'll find Guido van Rossum advocating for using python :P

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