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My first month freelancing

alanhollis.com

61–70 of 125 posts

Re: My first month freelancing

#61
post #59
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool! Lots of neat discussion there. I must say however, that "If I work an hour for you I can't work for anyone the rest of the day" argument is one I wouldn't want to pitch to a prospect. Seriously? If you work for 1 hour on project X you're done for the day? I know it's super inefficient to switch contexts and I agree about the "bill full day" assertion, but I wouldn't phrase it as "I can't ever do any context swi…

Much like your billing rate, your billing increment is not a discussion, it is an announcement. Most of your customers are going to agree to it automatically, and the ones who don't are giving you fair notice that they're going to call you and need precisely 89 minutes of your time ("rounds to 1 hour, right?"). Good clients will occasionally have an oh-cripes moment and need an hour from you in the middle of the day.…

Worth noting: good clients tend not to pay anything for the 1-hour "oh cripes" conversation. I'm extremely unlikely to bill for an hour or two of work.

Why does this work? Because I don't bill anyone for an "hour or two of work", and don't have to worry about this level of accounting.

Clients notice. More importantly: clients are much more willing to reach out and ask questions when they know the meter isn't going to be ticking. Matasano has never employed a salesperson; we get our business from repeat customers and word of mouth, in large part because we are very easy to work with.

See what I mean about good practices emerging organically from not billing hourly?

Re: My first month freelancing

#62

Shameless, shameless plug alert: if you found Alan's post interesting, you may also like the book I've almost finished writing. Check out http://freelancedeveloperbook.com The plan is to ship it before the end of June - am publishing via leanpub.com (great experience so far) and it'll be a paid-for book to cover the (many, many, _many_) hours I've put into it. When it's ready, I'll make a sample available so you can…

Looks interesting! Signed up and emailed you.

Re: My first month freelancing

#63
post #55

I will ask a question here that I wrote on the original link, because I think it may be useful for others here. I recently started freelancing (the last 12 - 18months) also, and one thing I did - to generate new business - was wrote a script that sends me a bunch of leads. Right now, it's primarily from Craigslist, but I will add other sources. I showed it to a friend and fellow web dev and he loved it. So that made…

If you have a bunch of leads sitting in your inbox, can you discuss how you rapidly qualify all your leads? Surely there must be value around the process behind that. [Aside: I'm on the fence about you selling this software. Once everyone has it, the value of it decreases, because everyone is competing for the same leads.]

The truth is, right now I just email the ones I am interested in. Some work out, some don't.

I definitely agree that there is value behind that process - and I have some ideas about how to solve that issue. But I first want to verify that there is a market-based need for the core product. Once people find it useful enough to pay for, then I will continue tweaking it and adding stuff on, etc.

I am not selling the software, I am just selling access to the leads. So you sign up, and my software sends you an email with 5 - 10 leads every single day.

I doubt that everybody will act on every single lead, every single day. Plus, I do agree that if we are to look at extreme cases - where I have as many freelancers as I can get, and everybody is replying to every lead - then the value of each lead decreases (or increases, depending on your perspective), but I will be tweaking it and adding sources and listening to feedback.

If the problem I am having is that too many people competing for the same leads, I think that would be a good problem to have :)

Re: My first month freelancing

#64
post #56
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking large scale projects & clients here, though. For smaller scale work and titchy clients (a massive marketplace where some of the most successful consultants I know operate), "daily rate" just doesn't work (YMMV). Neither does fixed price, really. I spent a period charging daily and half day rates based on the advice of someone else - it was a pain for me more than anything. I spent more time asserting…

The industry standard project in my field is 2 people, 2 weeks. We do one-week projects, we do sub-week projects, and we do multi-month projects, but the modal project staffing is 4 person-weeks. These aren't huge projects. We work with as many startups as we do with large financial companies. I'm having a hard time understanding how a simple daily rate causes you more stress. Why were you discussing with your client…

> These aren't huge projects

For me, an individual, that is massive.

Where I work (now part time) that is average. But what works for a multi-person company doesn't necessarily work for individuals :)

> If your dealflow is dominated by a few recurring clients, you should consider whether you have something more analogous to a retainer or staff-aug arrangement than a true project model.

So my client list consists of around 50 regulars who will ask for work on irregular schedules, averaging around 5-7 hours a month (totting up to around 25-30 hours). Word of mouth can add 1 client per month. Together it equates to 80% of my work.

A retainer model would put off almost all of these clients.

> Why were you discussing with your clients how a "daily rate was better for them"?

Usually the discussion went like this - Please quote us XYZ

- Here you go, X days @ £Y

- Days??? What is this?

- Sigh

(also; I noted that clients seem to see "8 hours" as lot less than "1 day", even if you're charging the same - something I tested on a couple of in-tandem clients)

> "It's stressful for me personally to effectively receive 8x$hourly instead of breaking out precisely how many hours I worked so I can justify 6x$hourly with the client without arguing"

I think your views are skewed by the sort of clients you have. The only clients I've had who didn't query daily rates are companies large enough to have a HR department. I personally hate those - they waste my billable hours on bureaucracy, and I prefer to be paid to code :)

I also don't understand the argument you are making; one of my reasons for changing back to hourly billing is that my daily rated plateaued at around £900 (and I thought I was worth more). My equivalent rate now is much higher (~£1400), and I work more "days" in the month.

> It is a seller's market right now.

Absolutely; and there are some of us mopping up the lower end of the market. Demand is outstripping my own availability to the extent that at the moment "small projects only" is my maxim.

I understand where you are coming from; but this is my viewpoint after fine tuning small-town consultancy for ~18 months, as an individual, of how I can make the most money.

For a business on the scale you operate, yes, daily rates is the standard (and best) model.

p.s. from another comment I noticed:

> Worth noting: good clients tend not to pay anything for the 1-hour "oh cripes" conversation. I'm extremely unlikely to bill for an hour or two of work.

For you, that is easy soak. For me, I make myself available these very-occasional crisis moments - but that is two hours I can't just wave off... bill!

And the client is happy with this; they don't have to pay an expensive retainer for something they use at most twice a year. They just pay when they need me. Best of all it works for me because I am not obligated to them; so if they call and I am not available they don't get snippy because they are paying me to be available (nasty experience of this).

I do have one client who retains me for high availability - and their "hourly rate" is 250% higher than normal. They tend to be quite demanding.

Again, only my 2p. :)

Re: My first month freelancing

#66
post #64
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The industry standard project in my field is 2 people, 2 weeks. We do one-week projects, we do sub-week projects, and we do multi-month projects, but the modal project staffing is 4 person-weeks. These aren't huge projects. We work with as many startups as we do with large financial companies. I'm having a hard time understanding how a simple daily rate causes you more stress. Why were you discussing with your client…

> These aren't huge projects For me, an individual, that is massive. Where I work (now part time) that is average. But what works for a multi-person company doesn't necessarily work for individuals :) > If your dealflow is dominated by a few recurring clients, you should consider whether you have something more analogous to a retainer or staff-aug arrangement than a true project model. So my client list consists of a…

Look, if you're happy, you're happy. I've read your comments for years, like them, and certainly don't want to condescend to you.

I generally think you will make more money and have less stress if you can adopt a business model that doesn't involve mopping up the low end of the market at an hourly rate.

I can obviously see how switching from low-end hourly work to daily rate or project work could be stressful. I'd just say, recognize that the stress is coming from transitioning your business, not from the difference in client expectations. Transitions are painful. Better clients, as a rule, are not; we might effectively call this "the patio11 rule": your customer service burden diminishes as your price raises.

That said, if the transition isn't worth it to you, it's not worth it! There could be lots of reasons why it wouldn't be.

Re: My first month freelancing

#67
post #66
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These aren't huge projects For me, an individual, that is massive. Where I work (now part time) that is average. But what works for a multi-person company doesn't necessarily work for individuals :) > If your dealflow is dominated by a few recurring clients, you should consider whether you have something more analogous to a retainer or staff-aug arrangement than a true project model. So my client list consists of a…

Look, if you're happy, you're happy. I've read your comments for years, like them, and certainly don't want to condescend to you. I generally think you will make more money and have less stress if you can adopt a business model that doesn't involve mopping up the low end of the market at an hourly rate. I can obviously see how switching from low-end hourly work to daily rate or project work could be stressful. I'd ju…

Hehe, yeh, I'm not intending to sound argumentative - just throwing out my contrary viewpoint to that of you and Patrick.

You've fairly hit the nail on the head, BTW, in noting the problems of transitioning. I'd love to have larger scale projects (if I could actually keep interested in them ;)) with "better" customers (for whatever value of better). One problem for an individual, though, is actually gaining work - I hated doing that. The thought of having to constantly pitch for work (and to a certain extent managing it) puts me off.

But on the other hand - these smaller customers are currently getting shitty snake oil work, so when they hear about developers doing solid work in a friendly way they will come and bite your hand off.

To some extent I view that a "good customer" as much as anything :)

Re: My first month freelancing

#68
>There are a lot of failed companies with legacy code which now needs to be maintained.

If they were failed companies, they wouldn't need you to manage legacy code.

Re: My first month freelancing

#69
I'm actually working on a project that would help freelancers get qualified leads by doing all the scopework/qualifying for them.

I've chatted with a few of you HNers about what you'd like to see, but I'd appreciate any more opinions for matchist.com in this quick survey: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?formkey=dFI4cjQ...

Re: My first month freelancing

#70
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've brought up daily billing to a few potential clients and am always met with resistance to the idea. I've instead tried structuring my fees to promote long-term engagements. So I have an hourly rate (highest), day rate (little lower), week rate (little lower), and month rate (lowest). This is working out okay so far, but it sure requires a lot of explaining up front and I'm probably losing out on potential income…

There are two common consulting arrangements in which a customer gets a discount for a commitment. The first is a retainer. Retainer hours come at a significant discount because they might not get used, but are billed regardless. The second is long-term forward-looking commitment. A monthly rate is at the short side of long-term commitment; a multi-month project feels like a more typical discounted commitment. You sh…

How do you professionally say no?

This is one of the harder things for me when starting on a contract. I dont want to appear pushy and turn them away nor interested in going back to negotiating.

Ps. I am from south asia so I also think there is a expectation of a need for haggling.

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