My first month freelancing • Hacker News Board

Re: My first month freelancing

#51

Post by patio11 » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:05 PM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #46

patio11 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted daily ("Work is on a time and materials basis. Rate: $2,000 per day."). Invoices will typically cover a few weeks of work, depending on the tempo of your engagements, your relationship with a customer, etc.

This has to be regionally dependent. Around here there is no way you would get $2,000 day for web development. Best I have ever gotten is half that, for a one-day "emergency" engagement (i.e. drop everything and help me).

I just plucked a number out of the air, rather than picking a number which I felt was representative of web development.

Also, I've harped on this a time or two, but there are people who get $2,000 a day for something which is indistinguishable from web development in terms of activities performed but which is sold as accomplishing business goals ("making lots of money") with incidental reference to programming.

P.S. Charge more for emergency engagements. The business stopping for a day is worth more than $1,000 even if the business is a taco truck. Don't do professional work for taco trucks.

Re: My first month freelancing

#52

Post by sequoia » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:06 PM UTC

thechangelog wrote: post #19

sequoia wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

link or something? I'm also curious.

Here's one of the times: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3420303

Cool! Lots of neat discussion there. I must say however, that "If I work an hour for you I can't work for anyone the rest of the day" argument is one I wouldn't want to pitch to a prospect. Seriously? If you work for 1 hour on project X you're done for the day? I know it's super inefficient to switch contexts and I agree about the "bill full day" assertion, but I wouldn't phrase it as "I can't ever do any context switching. Ever."

Re: My first month freelancing

#53

Post by ErrantX » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:07 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #39

marcamillion wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see. How does this compare to just doing flat-rate quotes? I guess my aversion to even quoting daily, is the notion that you can be brought up to speed quickly enough to effect any good change (and add value) in just 1 day. For instance, if you are supposed to be optimizing code in a legacy web app - do you set a minimum number of days that they have to commit to, for something like this? Or do you just stick to da…

I have no problem with flat rate quotes. I only have a problem with quotes broken into abillable hours. My general M.O. with project quotes, which someone on HN once called "the first truly new, clever billing technique that I've seen" but I just call "the way Dave and Jeremy were writing proposals and statements of work when we started Matasano", is simple: * Make a conservative, honest estimate of the total number…

You're thinking large scale projects & clients here, though. For smaller scale work and titchy clients (a massive marketplace where some of the most successful consultants I know operate), "daily rate" just doesn't work (YMMV). Neither does fixed price, really.

I spent a period charging daily and half day rates based on the advice of someone else - it was a pain for me more than anything. I spent more time asserting to clients that this was better for them than actually pitching for the work :) (bear in mind that for small scale projects the client is probably unused to the traditional consultancy models, at least in my experience).

As an individual developer, if someone is asking me for less than 6 hours worth of work a month it is better for me (in terms of scheduling, justifying my timescales and actually obtaining work) to bill hourly.

I've tried various methods of billing and hourly has always resulted in the most work, less stress and highest revenue. But, obviously, this is only as an individual.

Many people poo poo such bit-part clients - but they have always been my most reliable revenue stream; in terms of follow on work and referrals. Larger more consultancy minded clients (billed daily) hardly ever end up with follow up and are way more aggressive in obtaining completion.

But as with all things YMMV; most of the developer consultants I know have their own individual viewpoint (and we're all fairly evenly successful).

Re: My first month freelancing

#54

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:08 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #52

thechangelog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one of the times: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3420303

Cool! Lots of neat discussion there. I must say however, that "If I work an hour for you I can't work for anyone the rest of the day" argument is one I wouldn't want to pitch to a prospect. Seriously? If you work for 1 hour on project X you're done for the day? I know it's super inefficient to switch contexts and I agree about the "bill full day" assertion, but I wouldn't phrase it as "I can't ever do any context swi…

Who's "pitching" this to a prospect? You make it sound like something you'd put on your website and in your proposals. Your terms are your terms. A client asks, "I think we'd just like you for an hour or two today, so can we just pay for that", and you say "no, sorry".

Re: My first month freelancing

#55

Post by bravura » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:09 PM UTC

marcamillion wrote: post #25

I will ask a question here that I wrote on the original link, because I think it may be useful for others here. I recently started freelancing (the last 12 - 18months) also, and one thing I did - to generate new business - was wrote a script that sends me a bunch of leads. Right now, it's primarily from Craigslist, but I will add other sources. I showed it to a friend and fellow web dev and he loved it. So that made…

If you have a bunch of leads sitting in your inbox, can you discuss how you rapidly qualify all your leads?

Surely there must be value around the process behind that.

[Aside: I'm on the fence about you selling this software. Once everyone has it, the value of it decreases, because everyone is competing for the same leads.]

Re: My first month freelancing

#56

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:12 PM UTC

ErrantX wrote: post #53

tptacek wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with flat rate quotes. I only have a problem with quotes broken into abillable hours. My general M.O. with project quotes, which someone on HN once called "the first truly new, clever billing technique that I've seen" but I just call "the way Dave and Jeremy were writing proposals and statements of work when we started Matasano", is simple: * Make a conservative, honest estimate of the total number…

You're thinking large scale projects & clients here, though. For smaller scale work and titchy clients (a massive marketplace where some of the most successful consultants I know operate), "daily rate" just doesn't work (YMMV). Neither does fixed price, really. I spent a period charging daily and half day rates based on the advice of someone else - it was a pain for me more than anything. I spent more time asserting…

The industry standard project in my field is 2 people, 2 weeks. We do one-week projects, we do sub-week projects, and we do multi-month projects, but the modal project staffing is 4 person-weeks. These aren't huge projects. We work with as many startups as we do with large financial companies.

I'm having a hard time understanding how a simple daily rate causes you more stress. Why were you discussing with your clients how a "daily rate was better for them"? It's perfectly OK for the daily rate to be better for you, full stop.

If your dealflow is dominated by a few recurring clients, you should consider whether you have something more analogous to a retainer or staff-aug arrangement than a true project model.

What makes me nervous is the overwhelmingly obvious fact that nerds like us are all too happy to leave money on the table. "It's stressful for me personally to effectively receive 8x$hourly instead of breaking out precisely how many hours I worked so I can justify 6x$hourly with the client without arguing". Well, you just left a new iPad on the table; if your clients are forcing you to do this because they are fucking assholes, then get better clients. It is a seller's market right now.

Re: My first month freelancing

#57

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:16 PM UTC

notJim wrote: post #50

tptacek wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no problem with flat rate quotes. I only have a problem with quotes broken into abillable hours. My general M.O. with project quotes, which someone on HN once called "the first truly new, clever billing technique that I've seen" but I just call "the way Dave and Jeremy were writing proposals and statements of work when we started Matasano", is simple: * Make a conservative, honest estimate of the total number…

> * Clearly state in the SOW that if additional time is required beyond the quoted amount, additional person/days can be staffed at a pro-rata daily rate. I (and I imagine a bunch of other people) am curious about this point. I worked at a previous company that ostensibly had terms like this, but it never worked out, because in practice the clients almost always bullied my bosses into giving them the extra work for f…

We've been doing this since holy shit I'm old. Overages (and underages) are very rare. I'm sure I've given more days back than I've ever asked for in additional time.

The thing that normally happens is, you're attentive to your project, you see schedule problems coming a week or two away, you make it very clear to your point of contact that there's a storm brewing on the GANNT chart horizon, and then you adjust project scope to account for it; this is the consulting version of "slipping features, not the date".

Re: My first month freelancing

#58

Post by stevejalim » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:18 PM UTC

Alan01252 wrote: post #49

stevejalim wrote: post #43

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I have signed up ;)

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Re: My first month freelancing

#59

Post by patio11 » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:22 PM UTC

sequoia wrote: post #52

thechangelog wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's one of the times: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3420303

Cool! Lots of neat discussion there. I must say however, that "If I work an hour for you I can't work for anyone the rest of the day" argument is one I wouldn't want to pitch to a prospect. Seriously? If you work for 1 hour on project X you're done for the day? I know it's super inefficient to switch contexts and I agree about the "bill full day" assertion, but I wouldn't phrase it as "I can't ever do any context swi…

Much like your billing rate, your billing increment is not a discussion, it is an announcement. Most of your customers are going to agree to it automatically, and the ones who don't are giving you fair notice that they're going to call you and need precisely 89 minutes of your time ("rounds to 1 hour, right?").

Good clients will occasionally have an oh-cripes moment and need an hour from you in the middle of the day. Good clients in an oh-cripes moment will think your day rate is a perfectly reasonable price to pay to get out of an oh-cripes moment. [Edit: On reflection, my actual practice for this is exactly equivalent to Thomas' as described in his comment. Do that.]

Re: My first month freelancing

#60

Post by alinajaf » Tue, Jun 12, 2012, 8:27 PM UTC

Alan01252 wrote: post #44

alinajaf wrote: post #11

Great post. I'm in London and started freelancing a few months ago and I'd agree with everything you've said. Only things I would suggest: * Contracts. Watch this talk by Obie Fernandez[1] and take a look at his Master Services Agreement + Statement of Work bundle (paid for, but totally worth it). Not only does it protect you to some extent legally but you come across as a lot more professional to clients. * Charge m…

Thanks for this alinajaf. Pricing is tricky. I've already been turned down by a few companies at my current rate because I was too expensive. This put me off raising it higher. I'm still unsure as to whether having pricing on the website is a good thing or not, it's always tricky to know what to sell yourself for.

> I've already been turned down by a few companies at my current rate because I was too expensive.

In this market, you really, really really are not too expensive.

Some concrete sources for PHP work:

* http://hackerjobs.co.uk/ - Quality of clients that advertise there is generally high.

* If you don't mind dealing with recruiters, cwjobs.co.uk will happily email you a steady stream of PHP contracts at the £350+/day range.

* The big publishing companies seemed to be hiring both fulltime and contract staff in perpetuity. I'd follow up at PHP London, as they seem to hang around there.

You should be going to PHP London anyway, with business cards (side rant: not a single freelance developer I've met at a meetup has had a business card on hand. The same developers complain about how hard it is to find work. Don't be one of these developers).

> This put me off raising it higher

I know the feeling. There are clients in the world that can afford higher rates, but it's hard to remember this if you get turned down a few times in a row.

If you're nervous about raising your rates, I would suggest that you try raising the quote by £50 at every interview you go to. If it's too expensive for the client and you really need the work, you can always invite negotiation.

Other than that just stick to your guns, and remember that there are economic situations that clients can be in such they can afford to pay quadruple your daily rate without raising an eyebrow.

If you'd like to grab a beverage sometime and talk shop, details are on my profile :)