One of the big reasons I love the hacker culture is the lack of sexism, if you are good you are good, doesn't matter what sex, race or religion. The only thing true hackers care about is your level of skill and dedication.
An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
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Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#12Weirdly, I both care tremendously about gender equality, and also think this is much ado about nothing. I guess the issue is my libertine nature, and refusal to assume that anything with sexual overtones is innately hostile, offensive, insulting, etc.
One of the co-founders at Fogbeam Labs is a woman, so this is not empty rhetoric on my part. I respect women tremendously, and would not have invited this woman to join the team if I didn't have tremendous respect for her technical chops, intelligence, etc. But I don't buy into this PC crap of assuming that taking the team to Hooters for lunch is somehow equivalent to sexual harassment or "creating a hostile work environment."
Now, I'll grant that in some cases there may be a correlation between a team that chooses to eat at Hooters (or strip clubs or whatever) and a team that is made up of guys who only see women as sexual objects, and who might be prone to acting in uncool ways. But I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater... deal with these things on a case-by-case basis, focusing on the specifics, instead of making wild generalizations, IMO.
Anyway, I believe in celebrating human sexuality and wish that more people (male and female) could quit being so damn defensive about the fact that men like women and women like men.
And please don't take any of this as excusing examples like the ones cited in the article, where a male co-worker physically assaulted a female co-worker; or cases where repeated sexual overtures are made after the initiator has been asked to stop, etc. Sex is good, sexual harassment is bad. Let's just not assume that the two are equivalent, or that one should never mix business and pleasure.
Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#13The issue doesn't have much to do with gender, really.
Firstly, one need not be male in order to be happy going to a place like Twin Peaks. The only time I've been to Hooters, I was dragged there by a bunch of chicks.
Secondly, one need not be female in order to be unhappy going to a place like Twin Peaks. Older, more respectable-looking men, men with daughters who would be round about the right age to be waitresses there, or extremely religious men, would feel uncomfortable there.
Thirdly, this isn't the only kind of company outing that can make people feel uncomfortable. Going to a steak-only restaurant can make vegetarians uncomfortable; on the other hand going to a vegetarian restaurant will make the omnivores uncomfortable.
Anyway, the point of the story is to organize your company outings, if you must have them, at someplace everyone will enjoy. Which, as far as advice goes, falls into the category "bloody obvious". No need to stick your genitals into it.
Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#14I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated, as I think that we all know what qualifies as an HR nightmare. Gender inequality is a problem that definitely needs to be avoided, but (what seems to be) the core issue for this article seems to be a non issue. We don't really have any context for the Hooters-ish photo, so I can't make any concrete deductions, but it seems as though an all male startup team de…
You've got it backwards: this is the context. It probably wouldn't trigger a lawsuit on its own; it's the reason you'd lose that lawsuit, or have to settle on very unfavorable terms.
Look at the cases the OP mentioned. Each one has a concrete injury (getting passed over for a promotion, etc.), plus evidence suggesting that gender discrimination was the reason for the injury.
Now imagine that a well-qualified women applied for a job with this startup, and was passed over. Given the breastaurant photo, it would look very plausible that the applicant wasn't hired because the founders hire people they like, and they like guys they can see themselves hanging out with at places like this.
Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#15I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated, as I think that we all know what qualifies as an HR nightmare. Gender inequality is a problem that definitely needs to be avoided, but (what seems to be) the core issue for this article seems to be a non issue. We don't really have any context for the Hooters-ish photo, so I can't make any concrete deductions, but it seems as though an all male startup team de…
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Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#16I had a client who used to call me up and ask me to come up and meet them for a "very important meeting", wherein I'd arrive and they'd go to a strip club. They did this several times, and I was never particularly comfortable with it. They were the opposite of a startup, but at the time I worked for a small company (who didn't want to risk alienating them). My salesperson (who was a woman) was very adamant that I att…
You actually can hang out at the Twin Peaks cafe in North Bend, Washington:
http://www.twedescafe.com/
Unfortunately it's been gutted and the current owners have no sense of nostalgia nor style. Wish I could re-design the place. Angelo Badalamenti on the stereo, Red Room bathrooms, pie display case... the possibilities for a nice campy tribute to Twin Peaks are endless.
Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#17One of the big reasons I love the hacker culture is the lack of sexism, if you are good you are good, doesn't matter what sex, race or religion. The only thing true hackers care about is your level of skill and dedication.
I really wish that were true, but it's not what I've observed in general.
Granted, the "hacker culture" I'm most familiar with is the "security-type" of hacker (as opposed to developers/makers), but its culture is rife with every kind of 'ism imaginable (sex, race, what have you).
I suppose there's some solace in the fact that at least the discrimination isn't exclusionary.
Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#18Do you think it's OK to go to such places outside of a company organized event? Would it be OK if the employees went there on their own?
Barely Ok: a subgroup of employees organizes it on their personal time (meaning: not using work email to send an "all@" message, or using work email at all). It's not discussed in the office, and no important work topics are discussed at the event. (So the people who didn't go don't hear "oh yeah we discussed that at Hooter's and decided ...") Not OK: even if the event is independently organized, pictures posted on c…
Aside from Hooters, what are other examples of "these places" that should be avoided? Our startup's engineering staff is all male- any advice that will keep us out of such embarrassing situations is appreciated.
Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#19I had a client who used to call me up and ask me to come up and meet them for a "very important meeting", wherein I'd arrive and they'd go to a strip club. They did this several times, and I was never particularly comfortable with it. They were the opposite of a startup, but at the time I worked for a small company (who didn't want to risk alienating them). My salesperson (who was a woman) was very adamant that I att…
This is the first time I've heard of it. I was expecting something along the lines of cherry pie at the "Double R Diner".
On topic though, it boggles the mind that staff would go to strip clubs as a work social activity, but it does happen. I used to work with some characters that got in trouble for it.
Re: An Open Letter To All Startup Founders
#20I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated, as I think that we all know what qualifies as an HR nightmare. Gender inequality is a problem that definitely needs to be avoided, but (what seems to be) the core issue for this article seems to be a non issue. We don't really have any context for the Hooters-ish photo, so I can't make any concrete deductions, but it seems as though an all male startup team de…
If your team has a documented history of this sort of thoughtcrime, any woman with a grudge and a lawyer can use that to fry you. Whatever you think of the ethics, it's blatantly self-destructive behavior within the US system of employment law.