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L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

l402.org

131–140 of 146 posts

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#131
post #32
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We must do something, this is something, therefore we must do it" "Micropayments are desperately needed" - this is true. "I don't see modern payment networks doing anything to get there" - this is also true. Neither of those imply we must solve this problem with Bitcoin, and neither of them contradict OP's statement. Bitcoin is slow, energy inefficient, and a shit transaction currency because of philosophies built i…

> "Micropayments are desperately needed" - this is true. Probably not. They've been proposed all the way back to Chaum's DigiCash, but no micropayment system has ever really taken off. Not just crypto schemes. Schemes to put micropayments on your cellular phone bill were a flop. Even 976 numbers never got traction outside of dial-a-porn and have mostly died out. All the enthusiasm for micropayments comes from people…

> Probably not.

Yes, they are. The current dominant payment models are (1) individual patronage (which doesn't scale, and disproportionately concentrates rewards/wealthy to the very most popular creators) and (2) ads (which are incredibly problematic in almost every way imaginable).

> They've been proposed all the way back to Chaum's DigiCash, but no micropayment system has ever really taken off.

"Nobody's gotten it to work yet, therefore it's a bad idea" is a basic fallacy that has been disproven many times throughout history, especially in the past few decades, where there were many ideas (e.g. VR, machine learning, high-level programming languages) attempted in the past at points when the technology and/or market culture simply weren't right yet, that were later validated as good ideas.

> All the enthusiasm for micropayments comes from people who want to collect them. Not from consumers wanting to send them.

Yes, because free-with-ads and subscription-based services are the two dominant payment models. Both are incredibly problematic (ads come with huge privacy and coercion issues, subscription services remove media ownership and don't proportionately reward creators for their work), but because they're already established, consumers don't feel a need for something else.

This argument is like saying "All the enthusiasm for eating healthily comes from doctors who want to pitch diets to people. Not from individuals wanting to eat healthily."

Paying for individual pieces of content is clearly superior to having your attention and personal information sold to advertisers, but because ad-supported services have a price tag of zero, there's no transparency as to what data is collected and sold, and the ad-supported model is popular and familiar, consumers will choose that over a new unproven system.

That does not mean that micropayments are worse. The principled arguments for micropayments are far stronger than that of either ads or subscription services.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#132
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Micropayments are desperately needed" - this is true. Probably not. They've been proposed all the way back to Chaum's DigiCash, but no micropayment system has ever really taken off. Not just crypto schemes. Schemes to put micropayments on your cellular phone bill were a flop. Even 976 numbers never got traction outside of dial-a-porn and have mostly died out. All the enthusiasm for micropayments comes from people…

At that time, "micropayments" meant payments on the order of less than a cent. Chaum's system didn't try to do that. I don't know exactly what "micropayments" means to people now. I get the impression it's more on the order of a dollar. But DigiCash really wasn't even meant to do large volumes of payments that small. I don't think a system like that has ever really been tried. It's true that any kind of pay-per-use w…

[deleted]

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#133

Bitcoin is not acceptable in 2024, and Lightning doesn't help. Nothing based on a PoW cryptocurrency should get any support from anybody.

> Nothing based on a PoW cryptocurrency should get any support from anybody. I'd rather have this than the status quo, which is...Patreon, basically, which is an utterly terrible micropayments platform from both a company-ethics standpoint and a user-experience standpoint. If you're concerned about carbon emissions, then tax energy enough to provide carbon capture to offset those carbon emissions, plus a little on to…

Carbon capture hasn't been shown to scale. "Carbon credits" and such schemes are blatant greenwashing. We already use an inordinate amount of energy on bullshit, with a hard enough time convincing people that there will be consequences for it. I don't want to move fast and break things when the thing in question is the biosphere that keeps me alive.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If micropayments were really that useful to people wanting to USE them, it would be done with steam wallet funds or steam trading cards by now. That pseudo-"payment network" is good enough for illegal casinos yet nobody has ever tried to do micropayments with it, because consumers do not want to pay slices of pennies for everything, because being nickle and dimed is literally a negative idiom NOBODY wants to pay a pe…

so put the 10 cent button in the middle, or at the end of the article? microtransactions exist within the realm of individual video games already though. spend $10 to get 5000 in-game tokens and 150 tokens gets you better gear. for the calorie and cost conscious rice eater, why should I pay $10 for a bowl when I'm only going to eat half? per-grain is ridiculous, but a la carte pricing on food isn't. Not everyone is a…

> microtransactions exist within the realm of individual video games already though.

Yes. That does work.

Linden Lab, the people behind Second Life, spun off their money system as a startup, called TiliaPay.[1] Tilia obtained money transfer licenses, linked up with JPMorgan Chase Payments, and offered a system where you could process a 2 cent transaction with acceptable operating costs. Unlike most "game points" programs, users can trade with each other and cash out in dollars. That's why they had to become a regulated financial operation.

It never took off. It does work, but Second Life and, to some extent, VRChat are the only real customers.

[1] https://www.tilia.io/

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#135
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was something similar with Coil.com, based on the Web Monetisation API. Basically you paid $5/month, and it was shared on a pro-rata basis between on content you consumed that supported the API. Coil themselves had content lists on their website to discover, but the goal was for the monetisation to happen organically. It failed.

Most companies fail. But I think something like that could work. It's what Google Contributor should have been. Not the bizarre v1 where your money tried to outbid ads, or the pay-per-view v2 that also only supported a handful of websites.

Google Contributor was dead on arrival by the usual issue of launching ... too small.

It could never get a following because the initial set of providers and customers would be always too limited to gain proper usage numbers which in turn would prevent it from being expanded.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#136

Bitcoin is not acceptable in 2024, and Lightning doesn't help. Nothing based on a PoW cryptocurrency should get any support from anybody.

The currency only has value because it was purchased indirectly via compute. Just like how dollars became valuable because they were purchased with gold. The cost of gold was mining.

Is Bitcoin inherently worth less than dollars? What about gold? Why?

I don't see how you can make currency valuable unless you pay something for it. So I don't see how dollars are environmentally more friendly than dollars. If that's your point.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#137
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most companies fail. But I think something like that could work. It's what Google Contributor should have been. Not the bizarre v1 where your money tried to outbid ads, or the pay-per-view v2 that also only supported a handful of websites.

Google Contributor was dead on arrival by the usual issue of launching ... too small. It could never get a following because the initial set of providers and customers would be always too limited to gain proper usage numbers which in turn would prevent it from being expanded.

v1 was very wide reaching but worked in a dumb way.

v2 had a pathetic reach and worked in a mediocre way.

Youtube premium does basically the right thing, so it would be nice if google talked to google about how they made it happen.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#138
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Contributor was dead on arrival by the usual issue of launching ... too small. It could never get a following because the initial set of providers and customers would be always too limited to gain proper usage numbers which in turn would prevent it from being expanded.

v1 was very wide reaching but worked in a dumb way. v2 had a pathetic reach and worked in a mediocre way. Youtube premium does basically the right thing, so it would be nice if google talked to google about how they made it happen.

I recall even the initial implementation being so geographically limited that it limited it chances of actually getting anywhere.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#139

Bitcoin is not acceptable in 2024, and Lightning doesn't help. Nothing based on a PoW cryptocurrency should get any support from anybody.

The currency only has value because it was purchased indirectly via compute. Just like how dollars became valuable because they were purchased with gold. The cost of gold was mining. Is Bitcoin inherently worth less than dollars? What about gold? Why? I don't see how you can make currency valuable unless you pay something for it. So I don't see how dollars are environmentally more friendly than dollars. If that's you…

Dollars have not been purchased with gold for a long, long time.

As a matter of fact, most dollars are indeed created without "paying something for them". Out of thin air. They are just points in a database, no more real than the Bitcoins you say need to be "mined".

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#140

Lightning network is mostly dead. Someone should do this but for the thriving L2 ETH ecosystem.

Setting aside personal opinions, I think the protocol is useful but should be able to encompass any payment system/blockchain thru a completely neutral and agnostic interface.
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