Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25% • Hacker News Board

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#11

Post by abeppu » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 5:11 PM UTC

> However, he said there were still problems, including the lack of evidence in patients and the cost of making such drugs and "it is unthinkable to treat every 50-year-old for the rest of their life".

On the "lack of evidence in patients" ... does "testing" this in humans mean decades long trials? Given that the effects in their animal model was 25%, it seems like measuring if there was such an increase in humans (and beginning taking it in late middle age) it would be a generation before you had results.

On the "unthinkable to treat every 50-year-old" comment, I think we as a society would need to change as a function of our changed lifespans -- making all the middle-aged people live to 100+ would exacerbate issues around social benefits, housing stock, etc. But if we all had longer, more productive lives (i.e. worked longer, added our skills and expertise to the economy for longer), could that more than offset the costs? If a drug raised your life expectancy by 20 years, and most people worked another 15, that's still pretty good.

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#12

Post by shrimp_emoji » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 5:22 PM UTC

grishka wrote: post #9

wang_li wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you need is something that extends your healthspan at slightly greater than the rate that new discoveries to extend your healthspan are made.

Yes, this is called longevity escape velocity, except this is not quite how aging works. The organism wants to destroy itself. It's part of the developmental program that starts with conception but eventually turns self-destructive. Trying to use the modern medical approach, where the body is assisted with what it wants to do anyway, is going to be an uphill battle.

What do you mean "wants to destroy itself"? Why does it "turn self-destructive"?

The best interpretation I can make is an allusion to how we're designed to be fundamentally unmaintainable (think Twitch's codebase), so living is synonymous with eventual ruin.

Fun biofatalistic fact: some evidence alleges that genes regulate our IQ to keep it within a narrow range, keeping from going too low or too high. :D

So, maybe, by just disabling some regulator gene somewhere, we could all be von Neumanns! But the true fix for all this is to rewrite the genome in Rust.

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#13

Post by irdc » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 5:29 PM UTC

grishka wrote: post #9

wang_li wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you need is something that extends your healthspan at slightly greater than the rate that new discoveries to extend your healthspan are made.

Yes, this is called longevity escape velocity, except this is not quite how aging works. The organism wants to destroy itself. It's part of the developmental program that starts with conception but eventually turns self-destructive. Trying to use the modern medical approach, where the body is assisted with what it wants to do anyway, is going to be an uphill battle.

There’s no proof of decline and death being “intentional” (as much as nature has intentions). At this point it’s just as likely that our bodies just tend to naturally poison us with glycated connective tissue, transthyretin, various peptides and what have you.

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#14

Post by irdc » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 5:36 PM UTC

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #12

grishka wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is called longevity escape velocity, except this is not quite how aging works. The organism wants to destroy itself. It's part of the developmental program that starts with conception but eventually turns self-destructive. Trying to use the modern medical approach, where the body is assisted with what it wants to do anyway, is going to be an uphill battle.

What do you mean "wants to destroy itself"? Why does it "turn self-destructive"? The best interpretation I can make is an allusion to how we're designed to be fundamentally unmaintainable (think Twitch's codebase), so living is synonymous with eventual ruin. Fun biofatalistic fact: some evidence alleges that genes regulate our IQ to keep it within a narrow range, keeping from going too low or too high. :D So, maybe,…

It would be fun to speculate what IQ escape velocity looks like. Just how much can we boost those neurons? How many Whetstones can your wetware do?

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#15

Post by grishka » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 5:40 PM UTC

irdc wrote: post #13

grishka wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is called longevity escape velocity, except this is not quite how aging works. The organism wants to destroy itself. It's part of the developmental program that starts with conception but eventually turns self-destructive. Trying to use the modern medical approach, where the body is assisted with what it wants to do anyway, is going to be an uphill battle.

There’s no proof of decline and death being “intentional” (as much as nature has intentions). At this point it’s just as likely that our bodies just tend to naturally poison us with glycated connective tissue, transthyretin, various peptides and what have you.

The proof that it's intentional is that Yamanaka factors work. They reset any cell, no matter the age or the specialization, to a perfectly young stem cell. Another proof is that heterochronic parabiosis works. Transplanting an old organ into a young body rejuvenates the organ as well. High concentrations of exosomes taken from young blood also have a rejuvenating effect.

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#16

Post by shrimp_emoji » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 5:46 PM UTC

irdc wrote: post #14

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean "wants to destroy itself"? Why does it "turn self-destructive"? The best interpretation I can make is an allusion to how we're designed to be fundamentally unmaintainable (think Twitch's codebase), so living is synonymous with eventual ruin. Fun biofatalistic fact: some evidence alleges that genes regulate our IQ to keep it within a narrow range, keeping from going too low or too high. :D So, maybe,…

It would be fun to speculate what IQ escape velocity looks like. Just how much can we boost those neurons? How many Whetstones can your wetware do?

Yeah! That's how I'm forecasting the first "superhuman AGI". We don't need a dozen civilizations' training data, either; just enough cheeseburgers. And we have loads of those already. ;D

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#17

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 6:16 PM UTC

grishka wrote: post #9

wang_li wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you need is something that extends your healthspan at slightly greater than the rate that new discoveries to extend your healthspan are made.

Yes, this is called longevity escape velocity, except this is not quite how aging works. The organism wants to destroy itself. It's part of the developmental program that starts with conception but eventually turns self-destructive. Trying to use the modern medical approach, where the body is assisted with what it wants to do anyway, is going to be an uphill battle.

> organism wants to destroy itself

Organisms don't want anything. They're a complex cascade of chemical processes.

You're correct in that programmed death is a factor in aging. (It's most dramatic in octopuses: removing a physical gland causes them not to brood. Unfortunately, octopuses being aggressive cannibals, this also causes them to devour their young [1].) But if it were 100% programmed death, the problem would be easy: change the code. It's not solely programmed death, but a complex mix of programmed death, accumulated damage and the body not really bothering with the latter, maybe due to the existence of the former [2].

> Trying to use the modern medical approach, where the body is assisted with what it wants to do anyway

A lot of medicine is forcing the immune system to stop going Rambo.

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17787564/

[2] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41392-022-01251-0

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#18

Post by grishka » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 6:31 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #17

grishka wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is called longevity escape velocity, except this is not quite how aging works. The organism wants to destroy itself. It's part of the developmental program that starts with conception but eventually turns self-destructive. Trying to use the modern medical approach, where the body is assisted with what it wants to do anyway, is going to be an uphill battle.

> organism wants to destroy itself Organisms don't want anything. They're a complex cascade of chemical processes. You're correct in that programmed death is a factor in aging. (It's most dramatic in octopuses: removing a physical gland causes them not to brood. Unfortunately, octopuses being aggressive cannibals, this also causes them to devour their young [1].) But if it were 100% programmed death, the problem woul…

> But if it were 100% programmed death, the problem would be easy: change the code.

The problem is finding the code in the first place. To my programmer mind, biology feels like it must be comprised of layers of emergent behavior. We're not very good at understanding these right now. It might well be that the code you're talking about is not in the DNA, but rather it emerges somewhere where we aren't looking.

> A lot of medicine is forcing the immune system to stop going Rambo.

Okay you win :P

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#19

Post by throwaway837te » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 6:43 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #11

> However, he said there were still problems, including the lack of evidence in patients and the cost of making such drugs and "it is unthinkable to treat every 50-year-old for the rest of their life". On the "lack of evidence in patients" ... does "testing" this in humans mean decades long trials? Given that the effects in their animal model was 25%, it seems like measuring if there was such an increase in humans (a…

I think you are right. If you get 20 extra years with the quality of an average 50 year old, I think it's a good thing.

Many countries are seeing the birth rate decline. If people could extend their life with 20 healthy and productive years it would change everything. Suddenly you could choose to change your career or make more long term financial choices.

Re: Anti-ageing 'supermodel granny' drug extends life in mice by 25%

#20

Post by kelseyfrog » Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 6:45 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #17

grishka wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is called longevity escape velocity, except this is not quite how aging works. The organism wants to destroy itself. It's part of the developmental program that starts with conception but eventually turns self-destructive. Trying to use the modern medical approach, where the body is assisted with what it wants to do anyway, is going to be an uphill battle.

> organism wants to destroy itself Organisms don't want anything. They're a complex cascade of chemical processes. You're correct in that programmed death is a factor in aging. (It's most dramatic in octopuses: removing a physical gland causes them not to brood. Unfortunately, octopuses being aggressive cannibals, this also causes them to devour their young [1].) But if it were 100% programmed death, the problem woul…

This runs counter to most physiology textbook introductions which tend toward making statements like, "The body's main goal is maintaining homeostasis," and from there framing the rest of the bodily processes as various feedback mechanisms which normally align to achieve homeostasis. Sometimes these processes are at odds with each other, and only their combined effect is homeostatic, but pedagogically the nuance of that is present from the start of education.