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The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

nytimes.com

11–20 of 38 posts

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#11
I think part of the fear regarding for-profit aid organizations is this: the pursuit of profit will create an incentive for organizations to follow the money.

As a result, more resources would be allocated for the problems in more wealthy nations (ie. cancer), while problems in poorer regions would be neglected (ie. maleria). The same problem would exist even within a nation through existing class divisions.

While this schism already exists today, an increase of for-profit aid organizations/charities will probably exacerbate this divide.

In the end, this discussion opens a whole host of ethical issues and philosophical questions. Life is rarely simple.

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#12
post #5

Wow. An editorial on the NY that makes significant economic sense and goes against the liberal ideology. This is a first. On the op-ed itself. I don't understand why anybody considers profit evil if said profit is not gotten through fraud or coercion. Exactly what is so evil about making money? Furthermore, all donations to charity are completely voluntary and private . Whether for-profit charities are evil or not is…

There are two unresolved issues that I see.

Contributions to for profit companies are not tax deductible. This may cause some to give to other charities instead.

Not for profit charities are required to disclose financial information. Sites such as Charity Navigator allow you to investigate such charities. For profit charities are not subject to such regulations.

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#13
If an organization is turning a profit for its owners or shareholders then it's a business, not a charity. That's a definition, not a moral judgment.

There are lots of businesses that do good work for people. The tricky part is when you're soliciting for donations, you just need to be extremely transparent about where the money is going.

What we need is not a rethinking of what a charity can be, but a rethinking of what a business can be.

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#15
post #5

Wow. An editorial on the NY that makes significant economic sense and goes against the liberal ideology. This is a first. On the op-ed itself. I don't understand why anybody considers profit evil if said profit is not gotten through fraud or coercion. Exactly what is so evil about making money? Furthermore, all donations to charity are completely voluntary and private . Whether for-profit charities are evil or not is…

> I don't understand why anybody considers profit evil if said profit is not gotten through fraud or coercion.

For example, Marx said that more capitalism logically leads to subsistence living conditions for the workers. He gave arguments for this. I think they are mistaken, but if you are wondering why people think profit is evil, that's a reason. Marx said that without fraud or coercion, and just free trade, most people will have very bad lives.

And, yes, obviously one can live in the US for a lot less than minimum wage, and be doing a lot better than the subsistence conditions Marx had in mind from his own time period. So Marxism is blatantly, factually inapplicable to the US (whether that's b/c Marxism is false, or b/c the US has been saved by it's non-pure capitalism with govt intervention is not obvious just from the plain facts). Why people are blind to this is a tough question.

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#16
post #15
post #5

Wow. An editorial on the NY that makes significant economic sense and goes against the liberal ideology. This is a first. On the op-ed itself. I don't understand why anybody considers profit evil if said profit is not gotten through fraud or coercion. Exactly what is so evil about making money? Furthermore, all donations to charity are completely voluntary and private . Whether for-profit charities are evil or not is…

> I don't understand why anybody considers profit evil if said profit is not gotten through fraud or coercion. For example, Marx said that more capitalism logically leads to subsistence living conditions for the workers. He gave arguments for this. I think they are mistaken, but if you are wondering why people think profit is evil, that's a reason. Marx said that without fraud or coercion, and just free trade, most p…

I think the capitalism today is much tamer than the capitalism was in Karl Marx's time. My opinion is based on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_wealthy_historical...

At the time of Karl Marx, the wealth built by Rockefeller and Carnegie is such a big portion of wealth of the U.S. But when you look at Buffet and Gates, they are not as wealthy as Rockefeller and Carnegie were. Besides Gates and Buffet's influence on political power is limited.

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#17
The problem is that there are many qualified people in charity work who make barely-subsistence wages who would likely do an as-good or better job with far less pay.

So, for the most part, my guess is that $500,000+ salaries are a form of rent seeking, and are not justified in the so-called marketplace.

It'd be nice if someone could crash together the stats and see if this intuition bears out. You know, look at percentage of donations used to actually help their stated cause, and see if having a super-star CEO actually results in a more well-capitalized charity.

I doubt it, but I depend on evidence, not ideology.

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#18
post #7

Renumeration is tricky for charities. In a public company, and to a large extent a private company, the bottom line is the bottom line. Investors invest, and they want money out of it. As long as it's legal, anything goes to get that profit. In a charity the bottom line is providing some much less tangible benefit to someone or something. The bottom line is a much fuzzier concept. The benefit is harder to gauge than…

Indeed. People give money to charities because they want to help a cause, not because they want to help the chief executive get paid lots of money.

I don't know -- I think a major portion of the experience is the feeling you get from the donation rather than the experience of seeing an objective indicator of your cause improving. Who the heck cares if Charity CEO A owns a Leer and parties with Paris Hilton every weekend if his charity has triple the ROI on donations as compared to Charity CEO B. (Not hard at all to imagine, incidentally -- private companies have that sort of difference in competence all the time.)

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#19
post #8
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that obvious where to draw the line. Executives of charities need to get paid. And because charities deal with large amounts of money, mismanagement can be very costly. By increasing the salary of the executives you can get more qualified people. As a result, the charity becomes more efficient and effective and everybody's happy. Often charities have billions (?) of capital. If they hire a local private bank…

No, they are paying people to make more money with investments or whatever - that's fine, do what you want - the money comes from the investment income, it doesn't matter if it's inhouse or out. But if you pay people from donations directly then it's not OK to pay a lot. Are you paying people to get more donations (no good), or are you paying people to make more money in some other way - including by saving you money…

>But if you pay people from donations directly then it's not OK to pay a lot.

Unless the donator is aware of the fact that you are paying your employees with the donations, and choose to give anyway. In fact, most large charities have employees who get paid, usually out of donations :). But you don't make your decision based on their management process, but based on the service they provide you; namely aiding some cause on your behalf.

You don't decide whether or not to buy a burger at McDonald's based on what percentage of your dollar goes to the CEO, but based on the quality of the service they may provide. Same with charities. If a charity can get away with paying exorbitant amounts to their CEO and still be the best value per dollar, people will donate, and it won't be wrong. Maybe the reason they do so well is that they were able to hire great high level management.

However, to convince people that you were going to spend their money one way and then actually spend it another is fraud. If you paid McDonald's for your burger, and they didn't give it to you, you would be within your rights to sue. At the very least you wouldn't go back. So it is with charities.

It is perfectly fine if you feel that a particular charity spends too much on management, and therefore decide not to donate your money to them. I realize that you may have been stating your personal opinion as to how you decide which charities you donate to, and that's fine. But to then claim in newspapers or other places that because they don't match your standards they are objectively evil and should be shut down/boycotted is a completely different thing. I think that is more what the article is about.

Re: The Sin in Doing Good Deeds

#20

The problem is that there are many qualified people in charity work who make barely-subsistence wages who would likely do an as-good or better job with far less pay. So, for the most part, my guess is that $500,000+ salaries are a form of rent seeking, and are not justified in the so-called marketplace. It'd be nice if someone could crash together the stats and see if this intuition bears out. You know, look at perce…

Did you read the article at all?

Take the case of the breast cancer charity which, from the article, was pulling in $71mm from charity walks using his services. They stopped using his services and continued the walks and are taking in $11mm now.

You might argue that several other variables might have also changed, but a 6.5x factor is hard to ignore.

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