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Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

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Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#121
Moralists and fanatics are principally concerned with issues of ideological purity...often to the point of being willing to sacrifice tremendous parts of society in pursuit of this purity -- even as their own slice of the pie gets smaller and smaller and even when pursuit of the practical would move the world towards their ideal much more effectively.

Every so often an event will happen where an ideological purist's rhetoric is true, and this arms them for years of ideological advocacy and warfare...while day-to-day practicalities are dismissed and pass them by. Sure, one could spend 16 hours a day praying at the alter of a particular path, but then there's no time to eat.

Interestingly, highly intelligent ideologues often (not always) follow an interesting path of massive and early creativity and productivity, while trailing off quickly into years of chasing imaginary rabbits down imaginary holes -- when simply continuing to produce would have done a better job of getting their point across.

RMS is like this. Early on he produced absolutely amazing stuff at an astonishing rate -- pieces of software which are still being actively used and developed decades later. Many developers would give their left arm to have achieved this.

And then it suddenly stops. The creative outpouring and concrete contributions to the material world suddenly end and he focuses his energies almost entirely in ideological purity.

It's akin in some ways to Newton's deeper dive into Alchemy or Savonarola's switch from medical school to religion.

Don't forget, Savonarola, despite his desire to pitch the Western world back into the Dark Ages, also fought corruption and exploitation of the poor -- he was right some of the time.

The recent news of Stallman's laptop's theft makes me even sadder because of his ideological purity, the chances of him finding a replacement, and getting back to just making stuff are even further away.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#122
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think of the Overton Window as a multidimensional space with multiple axes, RMS does occupy a location close to (although perhaps not exactly at) one or another edge of it. Regardless of whether he is wrong or right, he has done a great deal of work stretching the edges of, and drawing attention to, the part of the Overton Window that he occupies. In fact, it's the whole point of the Overton Window argument th…

> But the fact that [RMS] falls prey to this common error is not very relevant when we ask whether it is indeed "evil" to make proprietary software, or any other current issue that RMS rants about. I believe it is relevant when discussing RMS views. What you call "romanticism" of a group is only one of several possible romanticisms. There is also the romanticism of an individual, the romanticism of a family, the roma…

If we're talking about the man, then you may be right. Few humans are worth constructing an orthodoxy around every aspect of their lives, and RMS ain't one of them.

But as far as ideas are concerned, I think RMS's romanticization of MIT hackers is severable from most of his well-known stances on software freedom. I think ESR's article has more to do with RMS's ideas than with the man himself. If (Microsoft|Apple|Facebook) are evil, they are evil no matter what RMS smoked in his MIT days. If it's counterproductive to treat them as evil, then it's counterproductive even if RMS turns out to be God's only nephew.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#123
post #76
post #38

We need people like RMS. He marks one side of the Overton Window framing the debate on freedom and software. (Overton window: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window ) This doesn't mean he's right but what he does is necessary . If he didn't exist we'd need to invent him (or someone like him). (Oh, and he is indeed a fanatic, but of the pacifist variety -- not the kind who's interested in killing people to enforc…

No. The difference between RMS and ESR is one of kind, not one of degree. Both the free software movement and the open source movement believe that open system are good, and the more open they are the better they are. The difference is in their answer to the question of "why?" RMS and his adherents believe in inalienable human right to tinker, and consider limitations to that right, such as closed source technology,…

We do need RMS.

Compromise is a dangerous game. Especially when the proprietary world doesn't compromise back (and it usually doesn't). How long could the free software movement have continued to mean anything if each year it had crept a little closer to the mainstream technological community?

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#124
post #94
post #20

RMS is what he is because, what he is. You can't change such people, you won't be able to. And they won't change, And they must not change. If people like him, don't live like he does- Its impossible to take on entities like Microsoft and Apple single handedly. Although you can argue that ideas from Free software were there ahead and during RMS's times. You can never debate that he gave it a sense of cause, activism…

> People like ESR generally don't get taken seriously. You realize that this is practically a textbook example of an ad hominem fallacy, right?

That sentence came immediately after several criticisms of specific behaviors and tactics that could plausibly cause one to not get taken seriously. So the term "people like ESR" in this paragraph could be inferred to mean "people who behave like ESR". In fact, he even starts out "I see ESR as a epitome of [certain attitudes and behaviors]".

For example, because of his past behavior I do have trouble taking him, personally, seriously. But I would not use that as a formal argument against any of his specific ideas "ESR believes X, ESR is a Y, therefore X is false".

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#125
post #105
post #20

RMS is what he is because, what he is. You can't change such people, you won't be able to. And they won't change, And they must not change. If people like him, don't live like he does- Its impossible to take on entities like Microsoft and Apple single handedly. Although you can argue that ideas from Free software were there ahead and during RMS's times. You can never debate that he gave it a sense of cause, activism…

So many fallacies in one post. 1. You conflate RMS being supremely talented programmer with his political strategy. ESR criticized the latter and never doubted - but actually emphasized - the former. 2. Anybody who actually read ESR article knows that RMS was never criticized for his ethnic origin, faith, belief or way of life - only for his political strategy and manner of achieving this goal. 3. Advocating violence…

I never said ESR criticized RMS because of the reasons, I mentioned.

ESR is long know to write blog posts advocating US military campaigns on Middle east(Remember so far no proof found about WMD's in Iraq). He also used to write extreme hate blogs against Muslims and Islam in General, I used to follow some of his posts then. But later gave up on reading it was full of too much hate for nothing. I find it difficult to offer such people audience. Hate is a dangerous thing to encourage, no matter whom its diverted towards.

He would advocate all out wars to 'defend his way of life', So you now want several millions of people bombed, killed and a generation of people with a broken national infrastructure and hope. All of this just because you like hearing to Micheal Jackson and they don't?

ESR to me is nothing more than a guy who use to write articles on controversial issues during pre blogging days. And seems to have made some name encouraging/bashing/thrashing/bad mouthing people. Such bloggers are worth dime a dozen today.

RMS on other hand has proven credentials as a hacker. Both in the MIT Lab and later writing software like Emacs and other GNU utils. His political views are more non violent and more left leaning, yet far better than that of ESR's.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Eric_S._Raymond

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#126
post #119
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The difference between RMS and ESR is one of kind, not one of degree. Both the free software movement and the open source movement believe that open system are good, and the more open they are the better they are. The difference is in their answer to the question of "why?" RMS and his adherents believe in inalienable human right to tinker, and consider limitations to that right, such as closed source technology,…

The differences between ESR and RMS are: * RMS is technically competent. ESR is technically clueless. * ESR is more charismatic. He manages to convince people he's important. RMS has on charisma. * ESR will do everything he can do undermine RMS. It's a way of building himself up. RMS will do whatever he believes will further free software. They're both often wrong. * RMS's writings from the late nineties are propheti…

Have you ever seen RMS speak? I have, several times. He's fat, hairy, ugly, but he definitely has a great deal of a certain kind of charisma.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#127
post #121

Moralists and fanatics are principally concerned with issues of ideological purity...often to the point of being willing to sacrifice tremendous parts of society in pursuit of this purity -- even as their own slice of the pie gets smaller and smaller and even when pursuit of the practical would move the world towards their ideal much more effectively. Every so often an event will happen where an ideological purist's…

"And then it suddenly stops. The creative outpouring and concrete contributions to the material world suddenly end"

Here's a more prosaic possibility: he got old and/or moved into management.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#128
post #76
post #38

We need people like RMS. He marks one side of the Overton Window framing the debate on freedom and software. (Overton window: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window ) This doesn't mean he's right but what he does is necessary . If he didn't exist we'd need to invent him (or someone like him). (Oh, and he is indeed a fanatic, but of the pacifist variety -- not the kind who's interested in killing people to enforc…

No. The difference between RMS and ESR is one of kind, not one of degree. Both the free software movement and the open source movement believe that open system are good, and the more open they are the better they are. The difference is in their answer to the question of "why?" RMS and his adherents believe in inalienable human right to tinker, and consider limitations to that right, such as closed source technology,…

RMS is pretty brilliant, he's predicted exactly the kind of closed platform iOS turned out to be, and has been fighting against it. I think it's important that people be allowed to code and mess with their devices, and know what their devices are doing. How is it that so many iOS apps grab your contacts without asking?

Before I stray too far from my point; I am glad he does what he does.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#129
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The differences between ESR and RMS are: * RMS is technically competent. ESR is technically clueless. * ESR is more charismatic. He manages to convince people he's important. RMS has on charisma. * ESR will do everything he can do undermine RMS. It's a way of building himself up. RMS will do whatever he believes will further free software. They're both often wrong. * RMS's writings from the late nineties are propheti…

Have you ever seen RMS speak? I have, several times. He's fat, hairy, ugly, but he definitely has a great deal of a certain kind of charisma.

Nerd Appeal!

I heard RMS speak at a college even here in Bangalore. It was like listening to a Saint. Somebody like Buddha of software. He has a unique appeal which big achievers build around themselves. That sort of a calm confidence comes only through relentless belief one's principles and proven success demonstrating his principles.

Outside of nerd circles, this doesn't have much appeal.

Re: Eric Raymond: Why I think RMS is a fanatic, and why that matters

#130
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ESR doesn't strike me as particularly fanatical from what I know of him. Are you thinking of something in particular?

Are you familiar with his views about Islam or Homosexuality? Those seem pretty fanatical to me, they are completely biased and downright offensive and illiterate. He equates homosexuality with paedophilia, denies HIV is the sole cause of AIDS and believes in a conspiracy to hide the true causes, and calls for the murder of religious leaders of the middle east equating them with animals. I tried multiple times to dis…

That RationalWiki page is terrible; I had a high opinion of RationalWiki before that. (No refs; just read the content headings for what I mean)

This all apart from what I think of ESR.

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