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Story points are pointless, measure queues

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Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#111
Story points seem to be a reaction to a process that doesn’t include the proper amount of time needed to actually make a proper estimate. They seem designed to obscure how long something will take to accomplish. I think people like this because estimating is really hard and obscuring is seen as the solution.

The alternative approach is to do more detailed estimates. In addition to any design work this can require time boxing a “spike” to better understand things. This approach works well for estimating but leaves the sprint uncommitted until the spikes are complete.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Non-developers might have to learn something about development so they can push back on inflated estimates, which honestly would be helpful to everyone. If I quoted you $1,000 to unclog your kitchen sink trap, you'd call bullshit because you can probably find out how easy it is to do that. Likewise, if I quote you 13 points to add a generic error toast message because a POST went badly, you should call bullshit on th…

And yet Fred will take 2 weeks to do the work, and the team is dysfunctional so only certain people work in certain areas. Fred sucks. We can say his work is easy, and continually make him feel bad without firing him, or we can pretend it’s two weeks.

that really is the truth behind storypoints, somebody wants a way to create pressure. Which is also why storypoints are so bad because now you are pressuring everybody, even the good workers, despite only wanting pressure on a couple people. And on top of that you are wasting the time of the good workers with the whole story point estimation dance.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#113

My personal experience with story points is that the number never really mattered, but the process of the team discussing how to rate the complexity of a task was very useful. In terms of having utility of estimating how long something will take, I personally have never been able to translate story points into a reliable indicator for that for many reasons (e.g team changing, domain changing, variability in operation…

The points are needed because it's convenient to do reports based off of it. If we used estimation language such as "easy, medium, hard, dummy-thicc" they'd still need to assign points to those labels so they can do math on reports and graphs to watch your performance The biggest sin of course is then trying to predict velocity, but the consequences of that usually just make people doing the reporting look silly for…

[flagged]

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#114
post #30

Story points are in fact time, and I'm tired of pretending they're not. You can sugar coat it all you want and say they represent complexity, but at the end of the day(or sprint), the higher the complexity, the more time it takes to complete.

Fixing the machine at the factory can be quite complex, but you might have a technician in and out in a day or two to get it done.

Assembling 5,000 identical widgets is not complex, but it might takes you weeks or months.

Complexity and wall time occasionally move the same way on the graph (generally with wall time climbing much faster than our view of complexity), but they’re not necessarily or always so.

I tend to explain “complexity” more in terms of “at what skill level of employee would we stop seeing substantial gains in quality/speed/maintainability/etc when we assign this work out”.

Something that a senior could do substantially better/faster than an intermediate is “high” complexity. Something that the intermediate could do substantially better/faster than the junior is “medium” complexity.

Adding some fields to a form is low complexity—an intermediate or senior won’t do a substantially different job than the junior—but doing 10 fields versus 100 fields will change the amount of time it takes quite a bit. Architecting a new service will see gains to senior and beyond and is high complexity but may not actually take all that long.

Ultimately, this boils down to “how many decisions remain to be made”. Most tasks can be made lower complexity by making those decisions in detail. “Rearchitect this module” becomes medium complexity when someone turns that into “rearchitect this module following X pattern” and low when someone turns it into “move methods A, B, C into new class X and split method D into E and F along this line”.

This view of complexity doesn’t directly drive wall time, but _does_ very directly impact the variability of that estimate. The more decisions remaining and the more unknowns up front, the wider the range of possible outcomes. Reducing the complexity will reduce the range of estimates.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#116

My personal experience with story points is that the number never really mattered, but the process of the team discussing how to rate the complexity of a task was very useful. In terms of having utility of estimating how long something will take, I personally have never been able to translate story points into a reliable indicator for that for many reasons (e.g team changing, domain changing, variability in operation…

Software does not exist in a vacuum. You are probably right in thinking that story points should not matter to you, as a developer; but they do matter to external stakeholders. Forecasting and management of expectations is necessary because software often has external real-world dependencies: available funding for a first release, marketing materials, hardware that can't be released without software, trade shows, dev…

There was a part of the article that discussed that you create tasks, not stories.

You can group the tasks into stories or milestones or iterations or epics.

In general, he’s saying you should always keep breaking down a task until it’s a 1, since 1s are easy to estimate.

The key part that may be missed is the “mob programming” or “pair programming” aspect where all the engineers on a team sit together and work through a story or milestones or epic to come up with a list one 1 point tasks.

Obviously this still can’t be done, so the only effective end solution is maximum pair/mob programming unless all tasks in an iteration are accounted for and broken down into easily understandable and estimable bits of work.

There is at least some truth to the notion that if you use mob programming, estimating becomes pointless.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#117

My personal experience with story points is that the number never really mattered, but the process of the team discussing how to rate the complexity of a task was very useful. In terms of having utility of estimating how long something will take, I personally have never been able to translate story points into a reliable indicator for that for many reasons (e.g team changing, domain changing, variability in operation…

Software does not exist in a vacuum. You are probably right in thinking that story points should not matter to you, as a developer; but they do matter to external stakeholders. Forecasting and management of expectations is necessary because software often has external real-world dependencies: available funding for a first release, marketing materials, hardware that can't be released without software, trade shows, dev…

> Calibrated burndown of story points is pretty much the only basis on which forecasting and management of expectations can be done in an agile process.

Do you mean in an Agile process?

Sorry I have a visceral reaction to this, having seen teams try to accomplish large things by breaking them down into story-level tasks and then sum up the estimates, and then watch the slow motion train wreck as gaps emerge, requirements evolve, learnings accumulate, and everyone throws their hands in the air and points to the long paper trail of tickets that prove they did their job.

Scrum and story points are a reasonable way to drive local incremental improvements when you have no greater ambitions than local optimizations of an established system, but they have a low ceiling for achieving anything ambitious in a large system. At best you'll get solid utilization of engineering resources when you have a steady backlog of small requests, at worst you'll redirect engineers' attention off of the essential details that make or break difficult projects towards administrative overhead and ticket shuffling. I understand why this might be the way to go in a low trust environment, but it's really no way to live for an experienced and talented cross-functional team.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#118
post #87

Just estimate time. In the end, whenever I worked with story points in various companies, even though developers, Project Managers or Scrum Masters would often state that Story Points are a measure of complexity, in the end, the Velocity for a given sprint was measured in Story Points as well. So, in the end a Story Point is equal to an amount of time in a sprint. This is also stated in the article: > Story points do…

The real question is “how to get shit done”?

Scrum, agile, safe, etc.. are ways to get shit done that all target the measurement.

Estimations are that measurement.

The nugget from this article that seems to missed by many is the subtle but strong advocacy for XP style Mob/Pair programming.

Re: Story points are pointless, measure queues

#119
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you try this (and I have, just not with fruits), someone will complain they can't graph fruits. You'll tell them that's the point. They won't listen, so they'll map fruits to numbers, and now you have the same problem anyway. My personal preference is to use time estimates with some uncertainty. A day or less. 2-3 days. A week at most.

> My personal preference is to use time estimates with some uncertainty. A day or less. 2-3 days. A week at most. In the project management world, there is an assumption that tasks that are overestimated and underestimated would even themselves out so that the total estimate would equal the actual time needed. Sad to say that accuracy of estimates don't follow normal distribution in software development.

I had one manager who used time in orders of magnitude. He’d ask, “is it a day, a week, a month, or a year?”
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