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What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

nautil.us

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Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#91

Post by darby_nine »

defrost wrote: post #7

The linked nautil.us article is a one sided poor summary of what is still an ongoing debate with strong beliefs on either side. Two people are quoted: * Jens-Christian Svenning, director of the Danish National Research Foundation’s Center for Ecological Dynamics in a Novel Biosphere at Aarhus University. He’s also the lead author on a recent paper published in Cambridge Prisms: Extinction that argues it was not clima…

You're not wrong but it's kind of absurd to expect slam dunk evidence of any kind of causal link in the archaeological record.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#92

Post by defrost »

darby_nine wrote: post #91
defrost wrote: post #7

The linked nautil.us article is a one sided poor summary of what is still an ongoing debate with strong beliefs on either side. Two people are quoted: * Jens-Christian Svenning, director of the Danish National Research Foundation’s Center for Ecological Dynamics in a Novel Biosphere at Aarhus University. He’s also the lead author on a recent paper published in Cambridge Prisms: Extinction that argues it was not clima…

You're not wrong but it's kind of absurd to expect slam dunk evidence of any kind of causal link in the archaeological record.

I don't expect slam dunk evidence and that'd be an absurd projection onto anybody familiar with the paleontological record.

I do, perhaps foolishly, expect articles in the science domain, even if PopSci, to not behave as if a single recent paper in a field is the only paper of note and one that definitively sews up an ongoing debate.

I'd hope such an article would at least mention other equally recent papers that have both parallel and opposing views.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#93

Post by panick21_ »

onlypassingthru wrote: post #82
kjkjadksj wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair it probably took some time to figure out methods to make mammoth steak last for weeks without refrigeration

Once humans figured out how to cook meat over a fire, it probably didn't take too long to figure out how to preserve meat using smoke and less heat.

Butchering and elephant and cutting down enough wood without steel or iron seem pretty hard. But I guess if you have enough people you can do it.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#94

Post by adolph »

nkrisc wrote: post #49
adolph wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wild hogs seem to handle it pretty well

Wild hogs are not megafauna. It would probably be equally difficult to hunt squirrels into extinction.

Seems like there isn’t a strong definition for “megafauna.”

In zoology, megafauna (from Greek μέγας megas "large" and Neo-Latin fauna "animal life") are large animals. The precise definition of the term varies widely, though a common threshold is approximately 45 kilograms (99 lb), with other thresholds as low as 10 kilograms (22 lb) or as high as 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megafauna

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#95

Post by cryptonector »

AlotOfReading wrote: post #8
cryptonector wrote: post #5

This guy ( https://www.youtube.com/@Antonio_Zamora ) makes a very solid argument that in the Younger Dryas a meteorite impactor hit the ice sheet over the Great Lakes, sending huge ice chunks flying that created elliptical craters that then quickly refilled that are called the Carolina Bays, and which are ubiquitous in the South East, and which point back at the impact point(s) (I think he says there were two impact…

There's a real danger in getting misinformation from YouTube channels. The Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis has been extensively refuted multiple times. The latest such paper ( https://doi.org/10.1016/j.earscirev.2023.104502 ) is pretty exhaustive in exploring the history of these ideas and how they fall short.

You clearly didn't even take a look. Zamora is not a run of the mill YouTube loony but a published academic. I'll look at the paper you linked, but you should look at Zamora's papers too.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#96

Post by LeFantome »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #75
jccooper wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whales and bison were subject to very modern techniques. While sailing whalers did stress whale populations, it was the steam launch and exploding harpoon that really did the whales in. Bison were destroyed with rifles, which are new in themselves, but the mass-slaughter behavior was enabled by rail transport. Plus they were plenty stressed by competition with cattle, bred for rail transport, and enclosure of the pra…

I agree, but while the technology wasn't the same, the timeframes were not comparable, either. As long the rate in of the selection pressure exceeds the ability of the population to adapt, it is just a question of time.

It sounds like you are agreeing.

Hunting pressure on already distressed species ( due to climate change ) over long periods of time seems like a likely explanation.

The complaint is not that humans were not a factor but rather that we were not the only one.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#97

Post by LeFantome »

adolph wrote: post #94
nkrisc wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wild hogs are not megafauna. It would probably be equally difficult to hunt squirrels into extinction.

Seems like there isn’t a strong definition for “megafauna.” In zoology, megafauna (from Greek μέγας megas "large" and Neo-Latin fauna "animal life") are large animals. The precise definition of the term varies widely, though a common threshold is approximately 45 kilograms (99 lb), with other thresholds as low as 10 kilograms (22 lb) or as high as 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megafauna

Not a strong definition but still sufficient to exclude squirrels and even wild pigs are on the very low end.

You raise a good point as I would have expected “mega”fauna to have implied hundreds of kilograms at least. Under 100 and as low as 10 kg seems to take away any true meaning from the label.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#98

Post by LeFantome »

dghughes wrote: post #44
deadbolt wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most devastating blow for the buffalo, wolves, bears, etc was habitat loss. Wasn't the most devastating blow to Buffalo the campaign by settlers to slaughter them, since they were important to the native Americans?

I think the word buffalo really confuses people. Bison are in North America while buffalo (small b) are in Asia and Africa. >Wasn't the most devastating blow to Buffalo the campaign by settlers to slaughter them I hope everyone in the city of Buffalo, NY are OK lol

You are of course correct. In North America at least though, I do not believe many people are confused. The term “buffalo” is used much more commonly than “Prarie Bison”. I am not defending it but it is ubiquitous to the point that everybody knows what people mean when they say “buffalo”.

If somebody said “buffalo” to me, I would assume they meant bison ( unless I had additional context ). If they meant Asian or African buffalo, I would expect them to say “water buffalo”.

Again, I am not arguing what is correct. I am commenting on what I think people, as a group, understand.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#99

Post by darby_nine »

defrost wrote: post #92
darby_nine wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong but it's kind of absurd to expect slam dunk evidence of any kind of causal link in the archaeological record.

I don't expect slam dunk evidence and that'd be an absurd projection onto anybody familiar with the paleontological record. I do, perhaps foolishly, expect articles in the science domain, even if PopSci, to not behave as if a single recent paper in a field is the only paper of note and one that definitively sews up an ongoing debate. I'd hope such an article would at least mention other equally recent papers that hav…

I agree.

Side bar, paleontology and paleoarchaeology still work with the archaeological record.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#100

Post by [deleted] »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66
kjkjadksj wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair it probably took some time to figure out methods to make mammoth steak last for weeks without refrigeration

I was reading an article, some time ago, about Amazon Indians that actually like rotten meat. Apparently, it is quite nutritious, doesn't hurt them (maybe acquired immunity?), and is probably fairly easy to digest (it's halfway there, already). Scavenging spoiled meat is a fairly classic natural trait, and even apex predators won't pass up an easy snack.

[deleted]
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