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What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

nautil.us

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Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#61

Post by Salgat »

slibhb wrote: post #56
xhkkffbf wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my question: if humans caused megafauna extinction, why did this not happen in Africa? That's where many of the megafauna continue to live. But humans came from Africa.

The theory is that African megafauna evolved alongside humans, learned to fear them, and developed strategies to avoid them. Whereas other megafauna didn't, so when humans left Africa, they were defenseless.

Which is the norm for invasive species. I imagine humans specifically concentrated on megafauna because, why not go after the single big easy-to-find animal that will feed your family for weeks?

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#62

Post by lawlessone »

nkrisc wrote: post #10
linearrust wrote: post #3

> Defined as large-bodied terrestrial mammals with a mean adult body mass of 2,200 pounds or more, today’s remaining megaherbivores comprise the likes of elephants, rhinoceroses, giraffes, and hippopotamuses. Was there difference in hunter-gatherers in europe/asia/americas compared to africa? Why hadn't the ancient elephants, giraffes, etc been hunted to extinction? > I think work over the past few decades has rather…

> Was there difference in hunter-gatherers in europe/asia/americas compared to africa? Why hadn't the ancient elephants, giraffes, etc been hunted to extinction? Consider that African megafauna have co-existed with early hominids and eventually humans for millions of years. They may have simply adapted to human predation successfully enough to survive, as one factor. Whereas in North America and elsewhere you have th…

>Consider that African megafauna have co-existed with early hominids

It is this imho Animals in Africa are more scared by the sounds of people than lions.

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2023/october/human-voice...

And the bigger ones like Hippos are hyper aggressive to humans, allegedly they kill more people than any other African animal.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#63

Post by kjkjadksj »

Salgat wrote: post #61
slibhb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory is that African megafauna evolved alongside humans, learned to fear them, and developed strategies to avoid them. Whereas other megafauna didn't, so when humans left Africa, they were defenseless.

Which is the norm for invasive species. I imagine humans specifically concentrated on megafauna because, why not go after the single big easy-to-find animal that will feed your family for weeks?

To be fair it probably took some time to figure out methods to make mammoth steak last for weeks without refrigeration

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#64

Post by kjkjadksj »

VeninVidiaVicii wrote: post #57
xhkkffbf wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's my question: if humans caused megafauna extinction, why did this not happen in Africa? That's where many of the megafauna continue to live. But humans came from Africa.

Somewhat speculative of course—the extant megafauna you’re referring to are somewhat endangered and but also don’t represent great sources of usable materials such as meat or skins. Additionally, many are quite dangerous — rhinos, hippos, and elephants to be specific.

Where do we draw the megafauna line? Do gazelle count?

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#65

Post by kjkjadksj »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #40
linearrust wrote: post #3

> Defined as large-bodied terrestrial mammals with a mean adult body mass of 2,200 pounds or more, today’s remaining megaherbivores comprise the likes of elephants, rhinoceroses, giraffes, and hippopotamuses. Was there difference in hunter-gatherers in europe/asia/americas compared to africa? Why hadn't the ancient elephants, giraffes, etc been hunted to extinction? > I think work over the past few decades has rather…

> I have a hard time believing that hunter gathers in tiny tribes traveling on foot with primitive weapons could have hunted and wiped out entire species of large animals from continents One thing humans could was starting fires that would drive many animals into a designated killbox, among other ways of "cheating". Humans were uniquely capable (at this size scale, at least) to both hunt species in excess to their ne…

The default is to outpace your need. Imagine if we evolved to somehow hunt just enough meat. There’d be some of us with less efficient systems for controlling that behavior that end up starving while they think they are bringing in enough food. Thats no good for reproductive fitness. Overshooting on the other hand is good.

Another factor, symbiotic relationships tend take much longer to evolve that carefully balanced relationship between symbiont and symbiont. Parasitic relationships tend to evolve sooner and its also not uncommon the parasite overshoots and kills off its own host.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#66

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #63
Salgat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is the norm for invasive species. I imagine humans specifically concentrated on megafauna because, why not go after the single big easy-to-find animal that will feed your family for weeks?

To be fair it probably took some time to figure out methods to make mammoth steak last for weeks without refrigeration

I was reading an article, some time ago, about Amazon Indians that actually like rotten meat. Apparently, it is quite nutritious, doesn't hurt them (maybe acquired immunity?), and is probably fairly easy to digest (it's halfway there, already).

Scavenging spoiled meat is a fairly classic natural trait, and even apex predators won't pass up an easy snack.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#67

Post by ds_opseeker »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #55
defrost wrote: post #7

The linked nautil.us article is a one sided poor summary of what is still an ongoing debate with strong beliefs on either side. Two people are quoted: * Jens-Christian Svenning, director of the Danish National Research Foundation’s Center for Ecological Dynamics in a Novel Biosphere at Aarhus University. He’s also the lead author on a recent paper published in Cambridge Prisms: Extinction that argues it was not clima…

Here's my question: if humans caused megafauna extinction, why did this not happen in Africa? That's where many of the megafauna continue to live. But humans came from Africa.

Another theory-- there are lots of places in Africa where people cannot live due to disease (without modern medicine). This creates refuges for wildlife.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#68

Post by FrustratedMonky »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #66
kjkjadksj wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair it probably took some time to figure out methods to make mammoth steak last for weeks without refrigeration

I was reading an article, some time ago, about Amazon Indians that actually like rotten meat. Apparently, it is quite nutritious, doesn't hurt them (maybe acquired immunity?), and is probably fairly easy to digest (it's halfway there, already). Scavenging spoiled meat is a fairly classic natural trait, and even apex predators won't pass up an easy snack.

Humans do it today with steaks. 'aged' steaks are basically rotting. They are tender.

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#69

Post by rad_gruchalski »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #64
VeninVidiaVicii wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Somewhat speculative of course—the extant megafauna you’re referring to are somewhat endangered and but also don’t represent great sources of usable materials such as meat or skins. Additionally, many are quite dangerous — rhinos, hippos, and elephants to be specific.

Where do we draw the megafauna line? Do gazelle count?

Apparently, yes…

> In zoology, megafauna (from Greek μέγας megas "large" and Neo-Latin fauna "animal life") are large animals. The precise definition of the term varies widely, though a common threshold is approximately 45 kilograms (99 lb), with other thresholds as low as 10 kilograms (22 lb) or as high as 1,000 kilograms (2,200 lb). Large body size is generally associated with other traits, such as having a slow rate of reproduction, and in large herbivores, reduced or negligible adult mortality from being killed by predators.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megafauna

Re: What Happened to Ancient Megafauna?

#70

Post by throwaway5752 »

defrost wrote: post #7

The linked nautil.us article is a one sided poor summary of what is still an ongoing debate with strong beliefs on either side. Two people are quoted: * Jens-Christian Svenning, director of the Danish National Research Foundation’s Center for Ecological Dynamics in a Novel Biosphere at Aarhus University. He’s also the lead author on a recent paper published in Cambridge Prisms: Extinction that argues it was not clima…

I mention this only to add to your informative post. Humans almost drove whales extinct because their rendered fat produced less fat for lamp fuel, and they are substantially pelagic. We almost drove bison extinct in NA in a matter of decades. We are driving massive numbers of species across trophic levels extinct, right now https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/dec/29/us-anima...

It isn't a choice, climate change related habitat changes probably contributed - which is also extremely pertinent today - but when you find the extinct species bones in human habitats it's a fair sign we were a contributing and possibly decisive cause.

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