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Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

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Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#31
post #26

Being able to accept the fact that we as individuals die, what is the thing that stop us from accepting that we as a civilization, and as a species will eventually cease to exist? The planet will still be here and there will surely be life left once conditions don't permit humans to survive, but even if it should be impossible for life to persist on Earth, so what? It's not like Nature and the Universe were made for…

I accept that we'll cease to exist someday (at the very least, we'll definitely be gone by the heat death of the universe), but I don't really see any reason not to try to delay that point as far as possible, by whatever means possible.

I mean... why the hell not?

Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#32

I think we don't know the long term effects of the things we are doing. But the usual cure people propose, a massive expansion of government, is worse than the disease. It will ultimately lead to more wars and an end to dealing with threats to our existence. But doing nothing is not viable either. We need to get control of the planet. We simply cannot just let the next ice age or global warming occur. This sort of th…

Last I checked, we haven't had a civil war in a while. If we had a decently sized "massive expansion of government" on, say, a planetary scale (for a planet-sized problem), wouldn't that therefore lead to less wars?

Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#34
post #9

Alright, I've just read the paper and I'm surprised that it got published in Nature. I mean, as far as crystal ball gazing goes, saying that "shit might, y'know, change in the future and stuff" is pretty reliable, but I'm not really sure how it counts as science . Link to actual paper (may or may not work outside the ivory tower I currently occupy, someone please check and let me know): http://www.nature.com/nature/j…

The paper is pretty calm and careful about predictions, as far as I can tell. What assertion from the paper (which is behind a paywall at Nature.com, but can be found free online via sneaky methods like googling the title), specifically, do you feel is unsubstantiated or overblown? Current models of the entire planetary ecosystem are admittedly quite primitive, but they often have proven to be predictive. That which…

What is a specific scenario, aside from the climate change scenario we all know about, that could lead to collapse that's discussed in the paper?

Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#35

Alright, I've just read the paper and I'm surprised that it got published in Nature. I mean, as far as crystal ball gazing goes, saying that "shit might, y'know, change in the future and stuff" is pretty reliable, but I'm not really sure how it counts as science . Link to actual paper (may or may not work outside the ivory tower I currently occupy, someone please check and let me know): http://www.nature.com/nature/j…

Dude, did you read the thesis? It's the main blue part at the top, like every paper in Nature.

It says that local ecosystems are known to go through critical transitions, and that what's make these transitions remarkable is that the tipping point is so hard to identify or predict. They are extrapolating this and saying that a global tipping point may exist as well. That's it.

You are right, it's incredibly vague and there isn't any awesome undeniable evidence. That's the whole point of the paper. "Hey guys, we might be screwing up our shit more than we think, we need to start taking more measurements" is basically the entire gist of the paper.

Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#36
It's almost amusing that this summary (don't have journal access, so haven't read the paper) doesn't bother to name any negative consequences of this so-called "planetary collapse". It's just "Shit. Bad stuff will happen. We're all doomed.", without even saying what the bad stuff is. Are they worried about agriculture? Species extinction? Disease? They don't say. How on Earth are we supposed to evaluate the likelihood of claims without knowing what the hell the claims are?

Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#37

It's almost amusing that this summary (don't have journal access, so haven't read the paper) doesn't bother to name any negative consequences of this so-called "planetary collapse". It's just "Shit. Bad stuff will happen. We're all doomed.", without even saying what the bad stuff is . Are they worried about agriculture? Species extinction? Disease? They don't say. How on Earth are we supposed to evaluate the likeliho…

It's all pseudoscientific bullshit, of course they're not going to be specific. You'd be just as well off listening to any of the religious "end of days" rants.

Edit: Here's the actual paper: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v486/n7401/full/nature1...

I'll reserve my full judgement until I've read it, but I don't have high hopes. It seems quite odd to invent an entirely new scientific discipline in one fell swoop along with making such a bold prediction.

PPS: After reading the paper my opinion is that this is far more pseudoscience than not, by a wide margin. There are some points worthy of further study (biodiversity studies, effects of the impact of human activity comprising a large and growing part of the world's energy budget, changes in ecosystems due to fragmentation due to human activity, etc.) but this paper steams by those topics at a thousand miles an hour. There is no theory here, only the vaguest outlines of one. Even the core terms (state, state shift, forcings) are vauguely and generically defined, if at all. There is no model, no predictions, and no evidence.

Flatly put the ideas put forth here are non-falsifiable. At its simplest "state shift theory" can be boiled down to "change causes change, sometimes permanently". Figure 2 is a graph which plots "global ecological state" against "global forcing". There are no numbers and neither term is defined either quantitatively or qualitatively. As a side note the essay references the now debunked theory of Mt Kilimanjaro's glaciers melting due to global warming, despite the lack of evidence of local temperature increases there (the glaciers have been sublimating away and snowfall changes have failed to replace the lost material.)

Nature should be ashamed to have printed this, even in an editorial context. It is so lacking in hard scientific rigor and so generic and amenable to any interpretation (there is no evidence presented whether "state change" could be beneficial or detrimental to humans or to Earth's species) that it doesn't belong within a thousand meters of a journal as prestigious as Nature. There is even a chance, though admittedly slim, that this could be a hoax, the work of someone who wishes to discredit the scientific establishment of today and its seemingly infinite ability to bend its standards and tarnish its history to print anything so long as the conclusions are politically correct (human population reduction, switching to "green" energy and "sustainable" agriculture, etc.)

These topics are too important for us to abandon scientific rigor in our attempt to understand our world and how it works and will change. We cannot afford to slip into an era of superstition and ignorance where conclusions are assumed and evidence is irrelevant.

Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#38

It's almost amusing that this summary (don't have journal access, so haven't read the paper) doesn't bother to name any negative consequences of this so-called "planetary collapse". It's just "Shit. Bad stuff will happen. We're all doomed.", without even saying what the bad stuff is . Are they worried about agriculture? Species extinction? Disease? They don't say. How on Earth are we supposed to evaluate the likeliho…

I thought the claim was that the earth's environment is subject to critical transitions, that critical transitions are by their very nature highly disruptive on all levels of a system, and that if you statistically map the environment then it looks strongly as though we look like we are approaching another one rather quickly.

The thing is, if we are approaching a critical transition then it is very hard to say what the precise outcome would be as the whole point of these events is that they are highly chaotic. Is a bit like asking where a particular molecule of water is going to be after boiling a pan half dry.

Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, but I also want to point out that "often proven to be predictive" is pretty weak cheese. I mean, I have a model for predicting the result of coin flips which is often predictive. It's called "heads".

Are you suggesting that models are not a useful scientific tool?

Yes, somewhat. Models are a useful tool to see what happens when the science is known. They work well to check if you understand your theory well: You model it and experiment with it at the same time. If you model matches the real world then you are good to go.

But if you try to make a model based only on your observations, without also being able to experiment, then that's not science, that's tautology.

Your model will do whatever you want, and you have no way of knowing if it has anything to do with the real world because you can not run multiple experiments. In some cases if you wait long enough you may randomly get enough variation in the real world to be confident in your model (for example stellar evolution).

But using a model to predict something you have never seen in the real world? That's not science, that's speculation.

Re: Study predicts imminent irreversible planetary collapse

#40

It's almost amusing that this summary (don't have journal access, so haven't read the paper) doesn't bother to name any negative consequences of this so-called "planetary collapse". It's just "Shit. Bad stuff will happen. We're all doomed.", without even saying what the bad stuff is . Are they worried about agriculture? Species extinction? Disease? They don't say. How on Earth are we supposed to evaluate the likeliho…

"the planet’s ecosystems, as we know them, could irreversibly collapse in the proverbial blink of an eye" seems like a fairly straightforward clearcut negative consequence.

They're worried that ecosystems (those networks of interacting species) will collapse (meaning the ecosystem dynamics change and the vast majority of the species who rely on and compose the ecosystem go extinct).

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