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L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

l402.org

51–60 of 146 posts

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#51

Bitcoin is not acceptable in 2024, and Lightning doesn't help. Nothing based on a PoW cryptocurrency should get any support from anybody.

100% thanks for saying this and im surprised you weren't flagged and downvoted in previous crypto bull runs such statements would been censored

Lol wut? HackerNews has absolutely hated Bitcoin since its inception.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#52

Bitcoin is not acceptable in 2024, and Lightning doesn't help. Nothing based on a PoW cryptocurrency should get any support from anybody.

> Nothing based on a PoW cryptocurrency should get any support from anybody.

I'd rather have this than the status quo, which is...Patreon, basically, which is an utterly terrible micropayments platform from both a company-ethics standpoint and a user-experience standpoint.

If you're concerned about carbon emissions, then tax energy enough to provide carbon capture to offset those carbon emissions, plus a little on top. Then I don't care what you use the power for, as long as I can get some, too.

The problem isn't PoW, the problem is uncaptured externalities.

I don't think that a distributed ledger is the right way to solve this, but flawed attacks on a solution being proposed to a terrible current state of affairs, without presenting any other solution whatsoever, is irksome, and doesn't help anybody.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#53
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The customer for this L402 protocol is obviously a media network, especially ebooks, and plausibly an alternative to spotify, applemusic and closer to the bandcamp model, content providers of all kinds who are currently subject to the chokepoint of payment processors. Emerging use cases would be domain specific LLMs trained on proprietary data sets in health, legal, accounting, and other professions. What it needs is…

Frankly, when you describe PoW that way, it sounds like something you'd get by giving an investor a monkey's paw. If you had a source of power, you had to use it, either directly or indirectly, to make goods and services-- satisfy actual needs somewhere-- to exchange it for stored value. Your model cuts productive economic activity right out of the loop, Why would anyone bother using their hydro/solar/nuclear resourc…

responding because your first argument is analogous to Sachs' "resource curse," where if you can make money in energy, why do anything else. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse it's a good argument, but essentially presumes a nation run by public sector unions and their committees of planners is a desirable end state.

75 years ago dubai was a bunch of tents, and it is now diversifying its economy in a very short time. the reason they would run a factory is because they need something to spend the revenue from the money they're exporting on. also, why do they need factories, it's pretty sustainable to just import everything and then leave no trace afterwards. anywhere with hydropower is a potential PoW mini-dubai, if perhaps a bit more godless.

the ossification critique reflects a scrooge mcduck understanding of wealth, where it assumes people sit atop a pile of it counting it or fill pools with it to swim and luxuriate in it, with no understaing of what capital is. the only scarcity in the world is freedom from fear and corruption to build, absolutely everything else is abundant.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#56
post #25

Calling this "the missing piece" oversells what it's a missing piece of . I'm not really interested in participating in something like this until other missing pieces are present also. Most notably, content should be able to cite its sources and I should be able to verify that payment is being split and sent to those sources directly. Sending it all to whoever maintains the server and trusting them to pass it on to t…

I'm not a crypto maximalist or even optimist, but it'd be interesting to see a version of this with smart contracts - when you rehost content and collect payments, a percent goes back to whoever you rehosted from, and on from there; when you cite a work and collect payments, a percent goes back to whoever you cited, and so on from there to whoever they cited. There's a long way to go to get there, and there's no enfo…

If you had that structure in place for payments, you could use it for other stuff.

Imagine confirming an experimental result and adding a "replicated" annotation to the original such that all upstream citations that trust you can now have more confidence in the original result. Or imagine doing the opposite with misinformation.

I dream of a world where being trustworthy is the most profitable thing. How strange would that be?

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#57

Calling this "the missing piece" oversells what it's a missing piece of . I'm not really interested in participating in something like this until other missing pieces are present also. Most notably, content should be able to cite its sources and I should be able to verify that payment is being split and sent to those sources directly. Sending it all to whoever maintains the server and trusting them to pass it on to t…

In cryptocurrency, if you don't trust the person you're paying, you can check the program being called and its outputs and see the previous runs of the program distributing the currency to other accounts.

But it could be a multisig transaction in the first place. Why have the middleman at all?

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do. If you really want micropayments, then use one of the newer, better base systems that do the same things better on every metric, including not ripping through half a percent of the electricity generated in the world. Even if Bitcoin were the only choice available, micropayments aren't needed desperately enough to justify the climate impact. But in fact it's not.

> including not ripping through half a percent of the electricity generated in the world. Lightning network consumes half of the energy on the planet? Because L402 pretty clearly states that it uses Lightning and not plain Bitcoin. Using the power consumption of all Bitcoin would be deceptive and dishonest.

no, it's just that there is a subset of environmentalists that are totally unhinged and think they know better than everyone what should and shouldn't get an energy allotment. Rather than calmly advocating for raising the carbon tax until the externalities present in carbon emission are priced (and seeing what uses are actually cut in the face of proper pricing), they take to any social media they can to complain about a specific use of energy they don't like. I am just happy it has been kept to Karen level virtue signalling online and hasn't yet converted to [insert favorite authoritarian from history here] levels of repression on the populace because the thing that has made the last few hundred years of massive progress work is recognizing we are too dumb to make those decisions and letting individuals pursue their own ideas and spectacularly succeed (but mostly fail).

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#59

Just what everyone wants, more paywalls and toll roads for the internet. What a "shame" this will never take off.

Well, paywall her can also mean any subscription or even credits-based system like SaaS or Compute APIs (AI inference for example) not only for content.

Re: L402: The Missing Piece in the Internet's Payment Infrastructure

#60
post #32
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We must do something, this is something, therefore we must do it" "Micropayments are desperately needed" - this is true. "I don't see modern payment networks doing anything to get there" - this is also true. Neither of those imply we must solve this problem with Bitcoin, and neither of them contradict OP's statement. Bitcoin is slow, energy inefficient, and a shit transaction currency because of philosophies built i…

> "Micropayments are desperately needed" - this is true. Probably not. They've been proposed all the way back to Chaum's DigiCash, but no micropayment system has ever really taken off. Not just crypto schemes. Schemes to put micropayments on your cellular phone bill were a flop. Even 976 numbers never got traction outside of dial-a-porn and have mostly died out. All the enthusiasm for micropayments comes from people…

I want to send micropayments.

I'd love it if my media players/viewers just compensated artists directly commensurate with how much I consume. I'm not comfortable using a middleman for this because all of the available middlemen are giving a pittance to the artists while spending the rest of that money on technologies that make life worse for everyone. I don't want to legitimize that behavior by paying somebody for it.

Piracy + donations is often the most ethical option available today, but even better would be Piracy + micropayments on use because then it would happen whether or not I bothered to look for a "donate" option.

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