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Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

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Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#21

Post by JumpCrisscross »

em500 wrote: post #14
grecy wrote: post #2

Given how wildly profitable they are, we should be passing laws that they must produce X % of their power needs from renewable sources, where X approaches 100%. This would be a jobs program that would also help the planet. Win win. Investors would make slightly less money in the short term, but our grandchildren will be able to live. I think that is a good trade off.

> Investors would make slightly less money in the short term Why do you assume that the tax incidence falls on investors, rather than on customers and/or employees? With sales tax or VAT people tend to automatically assume 100% passthrough (so that the incidence falls completely on customers/consumers) even though they're also collected by companies. In reality taxes are borne by a combination of customers/employees/…

> taxes are borne by a combination of customers/employees/owners

And any green tax would be trivial for Google to add as a line item on invoices: it’s so defensible.

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#22

Post by gottorf »

grecy wrote: post #2

Given how wildly profitable they are, we should be passing laws that they must produce X % of their power needs from renewable sources, where X approaches 100%. This would be a jobs program that would also help the planet. Win win. Investors would make slightly less money in the short term, but our grandchildren will be able to live. I think that is a good trade off.

> our grandchildren will be able to live

Our grandchildren will be able to live regardless of where these companies source their power from.

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#23

Post by energy123 »

sva_ wrote: post #4
grecy wrote: post #2

Given how wildly profitable they are, we should be passing laws that they must produce X % of their power needs from renewable sources, where X approaches 100%. This would be a jobs program that would also help the planet. Win win. Investors would make slightly less money in the short term, but our grandchildren will be able to live. I think that is a good trade off.

There seems to be some traction with big tech investing in fission reactors and fusion research.

Primarily renewables:

https://bep.brookfield.com/press-releases/bep/brookfield-and...

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#24

Post by mrweasel »

sakex wrote: post #3
grecy wrote: post #2

Given how wildly profitable they are, we should be passing laws that they must produce X % of their power needs from renewable sources, where X approaches 100%. This would be a jobs program that would also help the planet. Win win. Investors would make slightly less money in the short term, but our grandchildren will be able to live. I think that is a good trade off.

I think I heard Google was aiming to do that by 2030. Not sure though

Remember when every company and government all had 2020 plans? Someone should collect all those plans and follow up and see how many was actually implemented, split on "by chance" or "deliberate action".

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#25

Post by prepend »

This makes sense as their market cap and revenues are also larger than many countries.

Max Barry wrote a book in 2003 called Jennifer Government [0] about a near future where companies were so big they had their own armies and intelligence agencies. It seems like we’re getting close to that point.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#26

Post by szundi »

gottorf wrote: post #22
grecy wrote: post #2

Given how wildly profitable they are, we should be passing laws that they must produce X % of their power needs from renewable sources, where X approaches 100%. This would be a jobs program that would also help the planet. Win win. Investors would make slightly less money in the short term, but our grandchildren will be able to live. I think that is a good trade off.

> our grandchildren will be able to live Our grandchildren will be able to live regardless of where these companies source their power from.

He meant a nice life

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#27

Post by energy123 »

mrweasel wrote: post #19
grecy wrote: post #2

Given how wildly profitable they are, we should be passing laws that they must produce X % of their power needs from renewable sources, where X approaches 100%. This would be a jobs program that would also help the planet. Win win. Investors would make slightly less money in the short term, but our grandchildren will be able to live. I think that is a good trade off.

This could/should(?) be fixed by taxing CO2 emissions. I'm not sure what it works in e.g. the US, but some countries have this stupid idea that electricity prices have a build in CO2 tax, but applied to all consumptions, not just that produced by CO2 emitting sources. Let's say Microsoft could save 25% on their electricity bill by consuming power from wind farms, I think they'd work out a way to do more AI training w…

The ship has sailed on carbon taxes. It's good policy but voters don't like it, so politicians will never do it. Voters have shown to be okay with direct subsidies and permitting reform, so that's what we must do out of sheer pragmatism.

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#28

Post by gottorf »

szundi wrote: post #26
gottorf wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our grandchildren will be able to live Our grandchildren will be able to live regardless of where these companies source their power from.

He meant a nice life

In fact, they will likely be able to live a better life if everyone was free to choose an energy source that makes economical sense to them.

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#29

Post by IggleSniggle »

edhelas wrote: post #10
grecy wrote: post #2

Given how wildly profitable they are, we should be passing laws that they must produce X % of their power needs from renewable sources, where X approaches 100%. This would be a jobs program that would also help the planet. Win win. Investors would make slightly less money in the short term, but our grandchildren will be able to live. I think that is a good trade off.

Google, Microsoft and others are directly buying electricity from nuclear and renewable sources, doing some major greenwashing this way. https://www.ans.org/news/article-5842/amazon-buys-nuclearpow... By doing that they force all the others to rely on the "other" sources (gas, coal...) and not replace fast enough those ones with clean sources. The production is physically limited, if you have the money and power to b…

This logic just doesn't hold up, regardless of where the intentions behind the decision land. All those energy consumers are going to use the energy one way or another. Prioritizing nuclear+renewables just means that those energy production receive a premium for their production, which hopefully encourages further investment in building out more in renewables, which in turn continuously brings down the cost of consumption until it returns to equilibrium.

Maybe there's an argument in there somewhere around the lossiness of transmission, but I have no idea what it would be.

Re: Google and Microsoft now each consume more power than some fairly big countries

#30

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

prepend wrote: post #25

This makes sense as their market cap and revenues are also larger than many countries. Max Barry wrote a book in 2003 called Jennifer Government [0] about a near future where companies were so big they had their own armies and intelligence agencies. It seems like we’re getting close to that point. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Government

That ain't new. East India company had essentially private armies.
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