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Just Be Rich (2021)

keenen.xyz

151–160 of 320 posts

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#151
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like the Norwegian wealth tax is for wealth above $170M, which seems pretty aggressive to me. Gabriel Zucman and others made a website [2] in 2020 aimed at the US that included a wealth tax; the lowest bracket it had was for wealth above $1M. I like wealth taxes, and prefer Zucman's model over that of Norway. Progressive income taxes and wealth taxes seem to me like great mechanisms to build a middle class a…

The problem is, ultra-rich people don't pay income taxes because they don't have incomes. And they type of income earners who earn high are often those who spend years studying for no/low pay like doctors, lawyers (yeah, yeah), local small biz owners, etc. The tax experiment I'd like to see is a very progressive sales/VAT tax that exempts certain used goods, essentials (groceries, etc) and hits luxuries, sin tax (tha…

> The tax experiment I'd like to see is a very progressive sales/VAT tax that exempts certain used goods, essentials (groceries, etc) and hits luxuries, sin tax (that burden public healthcare) hard.

I'd like to see this, too, but all you'd get is companies constantly bellyaching about why is my essential product considered a luxury?? And lobbying to get them on the low tax list rather than the high tax list. Every company is going to have their little excuse about why their product isn't really a luxury.

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#152
post #40
post #21

"Paul paints a rosy picture but doesn't mention that incomes for lower and middle-class families have fallen since the 80s." Doesn't look like it: median income in 2019 was $44K, in 2001 it was $31K. That's adjusted for inflation. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_States I don't like it when the facts look wrong after two minutes' googling.

Dam, I didn't know the 80s started in 2001. Or is it just that that's the chart you can find with "two minutes' googling" and so that has to be good enough because that's the amount of effort it takes to find something that vaguely seems to satisfy your confirmation bias? Okay, though, let's just look at the chart you link. Let's assume that "inflation adjusted dollars" tracks purchasing power parity perfectly over t…

Or is it just that that's the chart you can find with "two minutes' googling" and so that has to be good enough because that's the amount of effort it takes to find something that vaguely seems to satisfy your confirmation bias?

Here's median income going back to 1975 which shows an even larger increase: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#153
I think there's another point to be made here that isn't often discussed. Even in a system where people that work hardest/smartest directly translates to the most successful - doesn't mean you have a good system.

Consider an environment where a million engineers are all working on their own startups. 99% of them fail and reward the work put into them with nothing. Some subset of the remainder makes barely enough to survive; a smaller subset makes enough to have a successful business; a smaller subset makes millions, and a smaller subset makes the vast majority of the money available. If the effort put into the thing follows a mostly linear line, but the reward is exponential, is this really a good system? Do the people at the top of this structure deserve the wealth they gain, even if they genuinely the best at what they do?

More and more systems today are winner-take-all. Entertainment is notorious for a tiny number of multi-millionaire artists/actors/comedians/etc., while the vast majority of people that try to make it end up with a succession of part-time jobs that never ends. Even if there's no nepotism or corruption, is a system where the people at the top get everything and the bottom gets nothing a good one?

There's something disturbing about PG's take to me - as if only the most successful are deserving, or worthy - that this warped reward structure isn't inherently unjust. It feels like the kind of justifications nobility and royalty relied on, but for modern times - "I worked hard, I found the market, I did everything right, so naturally I deserve more wealth than a human can use in a thousand lifetimes."

So to be honest, I find almost every single one of PG's points worthless. I don't care how easy it is to start a startup if the chance of real money from it is one in a million. I don't care about how much faster growth is when its billions of dollars for a few dozen people. I don't care if the new wealth is genuinely new instead of inherited, if all we get from it is yet another tiny group of obscenely wealthy people - meet the new boss, same as the old boss. And I especially dislike the idea that the "far left" should be happy that "labor has won". Having a system that picks a few hundred of the "most worthy" each year and adds them to the capital class is by no means what I could consider labor winning.

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#154
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's copious amounts of ink spent on why wealth inequality is bad for a country. The author doesn't need to rehash all of those arguments to make his point.

Tell us one of them. I'll give an example where everyone was equal. The USSR. That worked out great, right?

I don't think any of the wealth inequality experts are arguing for identical wealth. They want to make sure that all tiers of society maintain social mobility and can participate in the American dream. This generally means preventing various stratas from taking unfair advantage of the system, making it more of a level playing field where we can. It benefits society when a genius born in the slums can make something of themselves, that the opportunities are there to escape the slum.

Extreme inequality leads to crime, social instability and eventually major civil unrest. As with everything, it's about moderation. Unrestrained capitalism is just as bad as unrestrained communism, the ideal balance is somewhere in between.

As for sources, here are a few (just a web search away):

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2020/01/09/trends-...

https://inequality.org/facts/wealth-inequality/

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/rising-inequality-a-major...

https://www.oecd.org/en/data/indicators/income-inequality.ht...

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#155
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let's just do away with any attempt at sticking to the facts, and stick to the vibe of the thing. to me, you are doing the nitpicking. picking 2001 was generous, the growth is far greater if you look back to the 80s.

But the vibe of the thing is about income inequality, and it's good that it is, because the value of money isn't fixed. Only rich people staring at a stock portfolio care about "number went up", what most people care about is their real purchasing power. Right now, the income you need to qualify for a mortgage on a house in the US is around the ~80-85th percentile mark of household income, generously. The Gini Coeffi…

yes, philosophically and by the vibes, we are in complete agreement. clearly inequality is growing, clearly that is bad.

but you're doing a disservice with completely bogus claims like "incomes for lower and middle-class families have fallen since the 80s". it only makes it harder to talk about the real issues and facts, because why would the other side stick to them now? the trust between sides gets further eroded and the gap widens

there's enough real data that we don't have to start making stuff up. the author could have easily pointed to housing instead like you. i think it's actually extremely important to get these facts right. enough to argue about on an internet forum on a sunday evening

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#156
post #35
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They were builders, they had businesses building for other people and invested their own money and time into these buildings for their own family. Luck in exactly what sense ? Yes, they did not die of dysentery on the trail, so evidently some luck was involved, but the wealth building seems very intentional and causal.

Luck that their grandpa built the duplex. I am unlucky that my grandpa did not build a duplex. Luck that their parents held the assets and did not sell it.

This is not luck.

Your grandfather chose your grandmother and so too did your parents.

Your parents deciding to do something is not luck either.

I want my children to have an inheritance, the actions I take to ensure that are ongoing deliberate choices to build wealth over having fun.

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would this not be easily solved with a one-time 50-90% wealth tax when they exfiltrate their money from the place where others earned it for them, rather than the ~1% annual wealth tax they want to leave over?

Because most will leave as soon as the law is announced before it becomes law in that case.

OK, so make it retroactive on the day the law was passed. Laws are words written on paper, it's not like dark wizardry.

These kinds of objections always come up. "But, rich people are oh so clever, and they will exploit loopholes in any law that gets written!" Well, write stronger laws. Don't include exceptions. Lawmakers need to think more than 5 minutes about what kinds of options/resources are available to people, and how those people might game their way into getting around the spirit of the law.

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#158
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. If you can move to another state to live cheaper, why wouldn't people. That is the argument for a more nationally consistent tax code, so the 'rich' can't just game the system by moving to the one cheap state where they bought off the politicians. And same goes internationally, if all countries would enact laws against money laundering, or at least enforce it, then the rich wouldn't so easily move their money a…

Or maybe it's an argument for allowing states to try different economic strategies and compete for business based on outcomes of those strategies. If California taxes people and businesses at insane levels, maybe we shouldn't replicate insane level of taxation everywhere else in U.S., on the off chance that it is not, in fact, an optimal level for generating wealth for the people. Maybe Texas and Florida should be al…

> If California taxes people and businesses at insane levels, maybe we shouldn't replicate insane level of taxation everywhere else in U.S., on the off chance that it is not, in fact, an optimal level for generating wealth for the people.

This is nonsense. California is the strongest state in the union economically, with one of the highest quality of life and income per capita. We have an affordability crisis that is related to the topic at hand - billionaires hoarding wealth and driving up the cost of living - but that's a national problem that California can't solve on it's own. Our taxes pay for the things that enable our success - roads, power, dams, parks, libraries, and all that other good stuff.

Meanwhile Floridians can't use their beaches due to red tide and dumping tires in the water. The people of Houston JUST got their power back yesterday a week after a mere Category 1 hurricane. Maybe they should raise some taxes and do something about that so their cities stop losing economic productivity multiple times a year...

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developing this a bit; I get that founders might object to being lumped in with the asshole-rich-guy demographic associated with the term, but "capital" doesn't mean people who never had to work hard, it means capital. When we talk about laws and regulations that advantage capital over labor or v.v., we're talking about money rather than people. The fact that founders get rich via stock options rather than by paying…

Capital includes everybody’s life savings. It’s common to have a goal of retiring someday, and having capital is how you retire. What would it even mean for labor to “win,” if not by controlling some capital of their own? Could a union win without a pension plan?

> Capital includes everybody’s life savings.

Capital in the sense being discussed (which derives from the same critique of capitalism in which "capitalism" was coined) refers to the non-financial, non-land means of production; one's life savings are not capital, though they may (or may not) be used to acquire capital.

> It’s common to have a goal of retiring someday, and having capital is how you retire.

Having private ownership of capital is important to being able to retire within capitalism. That's a feature of capitalism, not an inherent feature of retirement.

> What would it even mean for labor to “win,” if not by controlling some capital of their own?

It expressly involves control of capital by labor collectively, which is not the same as private ownership of capital.

> Could a union win without a pension plan?

A pension plan is not capital. In a system in which private ownership of capital is a thing, and in which capital ownership is systematically favored throughout society, it will be normal for a pension fund to own capital, but the existence of such a system means that labor has not won.

Also, pension plans aren't essential to unions, they are something unions often provide because providing for retirement is a gap in the system in which they exist that they elect to plug collectively. If labor actually won, that gap would not exist.

Re: Just Be Rich (2021)

#160
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US had same problem with family farms. The farm itself was very valuable, so when being left to the children as inheritance, it was heavily taxed. But, this is a problem, because what is left is not enough for the kids to make a living. So in the act of trying to tax the rich with inheritance, there are some lower/middle layers getting hit very hard. Taxes don't have to be a flat number, there should be exemption…

> The US had same problem with family farms. [...] it was heavily taxed [...] what is left is not enough for the kids to make a living Math or it didn't happen! I say that because I've seen this kind of claim many times, and usually either (A) the Federal Estate Tax has no real affect on what happens or (B) their definition of "family farm" is wildly grandiose. https://www.cbpp.org/blog/the-myth-that-the-estate-tax-t…

Exactly, in the US, the estate tax minimum is over $13M. Under that, and it's not subject to tax. If you inherit a $14M farm (!!) and have to pay a little estate tax on it, well, I'm not exactly weeping for your misfortune. I would be happy to take that farm off of you and figure out how to pay the tax, if you're so against taxes.
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